ANWR Vote to be close

Mark, your comments make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

I also agree with E.J. that developing other ways to propel our vehicles just makes much more sense than continuing on the path we have been on, but as he said, we seem to keep putting it off. I realize this is only part of the problem though.

I imagine it will cost hundreds of millions (or even billions) to construct the infrastructure for ANWR. That would go a long way towards developing alternative fuel vehicles and much better public transportation systems!

And yes, some of those wonderful ideas for alternative fuel vehicles have been bought up by the oil companies, and you never hear about them again!

I would just like to add that this 51-49 vote, while close, makes ANWR a precedent.
To put this into perspective, if big oil can go into ANWR, then the next wildlife refuge or sensitive environmental area that they want will fall easier. Although this budget bill still needs to pass the House, over the last few years the House has had greater support for opening the refuge than the Senate had.

I have never been to ANWR, and I am not an expert on the matter. IMO, I just think this is a bad road for this country to go down and the natural heritage (including the wildlife) that belongs to all Americans will be the thing that suffers.

- Paul

More evidence the only hope for Civilization is for the UN to form a coalition to bring regime change and democracy to a Great Country ruled by a corporate dictatorship that actually does possess WMD and is a threat to the free world.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Jack

Paul Fusco wrote:I would just like to add that this 51-49 vote, while close, makes ANWR a precedent.
To put this into perspective, if big oil can go into ANWR, then the next wildlife refuge or sensitive environmental area that they want will fall easier. Although this budget bill still needs to pass the House, over the last few years the House has had greater support for opening the refuge than the Senate had.

I have never been to ANWR, and I am not an expert on the matter. IMO, I just think this is a bad road for this country to go down and the natural heritage (including the wildlife) that belongs to all Americans will be the thing that suffers.

- Paul

This is very true. Once the argument has been won that oil supply is a national security issue, then nothing can trump the need to explore and extract more oil regardless of where it is. If the government really believes that oil mean safety, nothing can stop them from destruction of any natural site, or am I missing something?

Paul

I just came across a quote that had a big impact on me, and seems to fit..

"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have exhausted all the other possibilities." - Winston Churchill

To your (US) defence, I must say that most of the industrialized countries have adapted "the american model" of a society based on consumption and extensive usage of natural resources etc, etc, with their own will. There are other industrialized countries as well that are pursueing same kind of economical interests that are heavily affecting wilderness areas. Which doesn't make the situation any better considering ANWR...

The biggest difference between US politics and most countries in western europe might be the corporate influence (among others of course). Someone here probably have more insight into this, so feel free to comment

(On the "positive" side, I must say that it is quite amusing to read for example the CNN news and especially the inside politics & MR. B´s recent public speeches and appearances. One gets very surprised now and then ... :roll: )

Just a thankyou to the site owners and Mods ... on another "nature " site discussion of "sensitive " subjects such as AWNR are locked or deleted ....

Just want to state my appreciation of the policy of open discussion on NSN -- ( Open discussion within reason - I understand that that EJ´s Donald duck underwear is still a taboo subject so I won´t mention it here )

cheers

G

I read that "Arnold" in California was really pushing alternative energy cars - hydrogen fuel cell cars. By 2010 he wants hydrogen fuel stations (or an alternative at the pump) every few miles in urban areas and every 20 miles on highways. And he wants to create a Hydrogen Highway from Baja to British Columbia. Hey - anything that can further get us away from middle east oil and involvement is fine by me. By the way - Dick Morris is the author of the article in Thursday's NY Post in the Op-Ed section.

Some of you might have seen the DVD, "Being Caribou" that was presented at many Arctic Action day on Mar. 12, if not it can be purchased at:

http://www.oilonicestore.com/webapp/wcs ... ry_rn=1119

Amazing documentary of two young Canadian's, a biologist and his wife ski & trek for over 130 day from Old Crow Yukon to ANWR. Its definitely worth the small price, I bought several and tried to get friends to support writing their congressmen, though here in Idaho it really does little good to write our congressmen yet one can always hope.

After the US declared the North East Arctic coastal area a refugee, Canada declared their shared border a National Park, Ivvavik National Park to help protect the Porcupine herd. On a personal float trip I floated the Firth River in Ivvavik all the way to the Beufort Sea in 2002 and I will be heading back the Dempster this summer as well, for to travel up there is irresistible to me.

The tundra is so fragile up there that just by setting your tent up on it you tear it up and disturb it a great deal. That is why the Parks Canada implores all visitors to camp only on gravel bars, below high water line. You gotta be smoking something if you think the disturbance caused by the drilling platform will be minor, give me a break.

Geo wrote:Just a thankyou to the site owners and Mods ... on another "nature " site discussion of "sensitive " subjects such as AWNR are locked or deleted ....

Just want to state my appreciation of the policy of open discussion on NSN --
G

It is because of the members here at NSN that discussions like this can go on.
The members here can "get it on" with a very sensitive topic such as ANWR, but do it with such a style and emotion that I think is incredible.

You guys have quickly become the "class act" in my opinion, and I appreciate each and every one of you.
As my little boys would put it, .............. "yall rock"!

How many of us are driving a hydrid fuel car right now? If not, why not? How many of us buy ONLY high fuel milage vehicles? How many of us own a SUV? Do you seriously believe that the auto manufacturers wouldn't be turning out hybrid vehicles by the thousands if people like us would only buy them? But we don't. We rationalize, they're too small, slow, ugly, expensive, etc and we look for someone else to blame.

There is so much hype on both sides of this issue that I do not know who to believe. "Being Caribou" was interesting but hardly an objective analysis. I alsonwould not trust the oil industry one iota.

I agree about alternative fuels and note that, at least in my area, we already use gasohol (90/10 gas/ethanol).

Public transportation? What a joke! Yes. in most places in the US it is poor (Washington DC Metro system is one of the few exceptions) but the reality is that with urban and rural sprawl, public transit, even if it was better, can't get you where you want to go when you want to get there.

In my community, we're lucky to have commuter rail service -- one hour and thirty minutes into downtown Chicago (slow) and then just downtown.

In the short term, I think we need to look at viable blended fuels (more gasohol) and perhaps limiting some vehicles. I cannot understand why people who live in urban areas and don't ever travel in challenging conditions need SUV's yet my neighborhood is littered with them.

mturnbo wrote:How many of us are driving a hybrid fuel car right now? If not, why not? How many of us buy ONLY high fuel mileage vehicles? How many of us own a SUV? Do you seriously believe that the auto manufacturers wouldn't be turning out hybrid vehicles by the thousands if people like us would only buy them? But we don't. We rationalize, they're too small, slow, ugly, expensive, etc and we look for someone else to blame.

Interesting and not quite correct. in my opinion, comments on hybrids. First off, they are certainly not ugly or poor performing. In fact the highest horsepower Honda car is the Accord Hybrid which looks just like a regular Accord and has 250 HP. Lexus now has a hybrid version of the RX mini SUV called the RX 400h. Toyota, who leads in hybrid sales with the Prius can't make enough to keep them in the showroom - waiting lists can be as long as 6 months. There is most definitely demand there for these vehicles but the manufacturers have been very slow at adding or converting capacity to build them.

There are two problems with hybrids though, one is they still use gasoline although at a lessened rate than an equivalent horsepower conventional engine. Second, the battery cell needs to be replaced after a few years, the current cost of which is $5 to $8 thousand dollars - thats a big cost of ownership adder. Of course this in theory should come down as the technology matures and the cost of the factories to build them is amortized. I guess a third would be that battery fabrication and disposal is a very nasty environmental proposition.

Overall though, I think hybrids are a good baby step toward reducing our consumption of petroleum and are starting to take off.

We still need a real alternative though. Many racing series already use methanol as their fuel which can be made out of just about anything. Unfortunately it smells really bad and you can't see it when it burns. Much more work to be done but we seem to not invest in it at the rate we need to.

mturnbo wrote:How many of us are driving a hydrid fuel car right now? If not, why not? How many of us buy ONLY high fuel milage vehicles? How many of us own a SUV? Do you seriously believe that the auto manufacturers wouldn't be turning out hybrid vehicles by the thousands if people like us would only buy them? But we don't. We rationalize, they're too small, slow, ugly, expensive, etc and we look for someone else to blame.

I do drive an SUV (which only has a 6-banger) because I need the space and would gladly pay a little more for a hybrid if one were available. However, since I work at home I do not commute to work every day and my SUV sits in the driveway for weeks on end (Heather drives her mini-car when needed). When I am traveling and shooting I do rent SUV's as well and would feel better driving something more efficient if I could fit all my crap in it. So for me it's a necessity without any choice of alternative.

Again, I don't put a lot of miles on it commuting back and forth as most folks do, but when I need it its there.

I agree with E.J. that there is more to it than meets the eye and I feel that if administrations want to make a big deal out of more efficient ways of transportation they would. Instead we talk about other issues.

A recent article found on Yahoo.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/st ... st=myyahoo

Hey Folks,

"please Carl, no. I need to get some work done!!
_________________
Greg Downing"

Greg, I hope you got your work done.

I'll be back.

Cheers

Carl

walkinman wrote:Hey Folks,

"please Carl, no. I need to get some work done!!
_________________
Greg Downing"

Greg, I hope you got your work done.

I'll be back.

Cheers

Carl

Carl,

I'll look forward to some good reading.

.....checking hard disk space....

Dick Ginkowski wrote:There is so much hype on both sides of this issue that I do not know who to believe. "Being Caribou" was interesting but hardly an objective analysis. I alsonwould not trust the oil industry one iota.

"Being Caribou" was a documentary (never intended to be an objective analysis) produced to raise awareness of threats to the caribous's survival. It provides an intimate perspective of how important the Arctic Wildlife Refugee is as a sanctuary for the caribou to bear their young. Most viewers come away with an appreciation of just how much a threat drilling in the refugee would be.