What's your reputation worth?

What's your reputation worth?

(Sorry this is a little long.)

I spent last weekend in the Montreal area photographing the Great Gray Owls with three friends. Saturday was GREAT, we had 11 Great Gray Owls of which half were good subjects to photograph and we were able to get some unbelievable photos ! We saw many friends from the Boston area that made the trip up and met lots of people from all over the North East U.S. and Canada, a really good time had by all.

On Sunday we drove to Saint-Eustache to try to photograph the Hawk Owl that had been in hanging around and seen the day before. We arrived at around 7:30 AM and spotted the bird as soon as we pulled up. The Hawk Owl was high in the trees but was out in the open so we started to take some images, there was also one bird watcher behind us with a spotting scope.

After about one hour two people (a couple) with camera gear walk from the road on one side of where we were and walked over to see the bird, about 100 feet from where we were standing. They did not say anything to us and after a few minutes they walked back from where they were. We thought they had departed but 20 minutes later we found out they did not. Here's where it gets interesting.

The Hawk Owl had finally moved to a perch where it was facing into the light after we had been seeing it's back for the previous hour. We had a Canon D10, a Canon D20, a Canon 1VHS, a Canon XL1 (video) 2 600mm lens, and 3 100-400mm lens between the 4 of us. Here's an example of the photos we were getting at this point of the morning:

http://esmith.marx7.org/galleries/Montr ... k_owl1.jpg

As for the video, it was almost full frame !

Shortly after this the Hawk Owl took off like a shot, flying to the other side of a line of trees we were in front of, out of our view. I followed to see where it went. When I walked up the road that led to a small building, I saw the bird fly in and swoop right in front of this couple and grab something then fly back to a tree just over my head. Turns out the couple was baiting the bird with live prey (mice we think). We later found blood in the spot where the bird landed.

At that point my friends arrived and I pointed out what was going on. This couple realizing that they were now not alone started to act a little "funny" is all I can say. After about five minutes they packed up their gear and started for their car (a four door silver Honda Civic or Accord) but had to walk pass us to get to it. As they walked by I and one of my friends confronted them about what they had done.

I would point out that by baiting on the other side of the trees they ruined the lighting. The bird now hung out on that side of the tree hoping for more food, putting the sun at it's back.

Here's our position:

1. They knew we were there photographing the bird and should have known we were serious photographers given the array of photographic horsepower/gear.

If they wanted to set up in the area we were there was no reason they could not have joined us. There was more then enough room, by a long shot ! You could have had another 15 photographers there and people would have had lots of room.

2. They never came over and said anything to us.

3. They could have come over and said "Hey guys we are going to bait this bird but we want to have the "best angle" on the bird, if you want to try to get some shots as well here's where we are going to it. They did NOT DO THIS!

As for baiting Hawks and Owls with live prey, we don't do this but if others want to that's their business.

4. They could have waited for us to leave before baiting the bird.

5. Because they baited the bird away from us we were now unable to get any decent photos since it was now hidden in a group of trees on this other side. And now the bird was full after eating and did not need to hunt.

6. We were getting good photos and video of the bird before the couple
baited (poached) the bird away (see the photo above).


Bottom line for me and my friends was this was a BUSH-LEAGUE move !
Like many things in life there are unwritten rules or like golf there is etiquette that one uses around others.

This couple thought they were entitled to do what ever they wanted when they wanted and not until we saw what they were doing did they stop.

Now as they walked pass us and we started to question what they had done and gave them (I must admit) a hard time, but we never swore at them and did not touch them.

Their response was they were there at 5:30am, (which I do not believe) they lived in Quebec (or the area) and had been going there for over a month to photograph this bird.

They also said that they had permission to be there and asked if we did. We had been given instructions to the site by other birders and there was no mention of any issue with permission. We did not see any "No Trespassing" signs, in fact I saw one guy that worked at the small building where the bird was hanging out and he even pointed to the bird when I walked over to see what was going on . This was a business district so we didn't think there would have been an issue. If it hadn't been early Sunday morning, we would have asked if it was okay to go on the land.

This couple also stated:
We on the other hand were from the U.S. and one comment as he saw the vehicle we were riding in he said "oh the Air Force that explains it". You see on the license plate surround it reads United States Air Force, the person in our group that was driving is a Boston area Police Officer and is a Air Force Military Police Reserve. Somehow that made us wrong or the "bad guys". I repeated to him that it was a BUSH-LEAGUE move and his reputation was on the line and that we were going to post what happened on all the major wildlife photography web sites. Needless to say we were BS at what had happened and what these two had pulled off.

It's not "their bird" an all of their arguments were why it was within their rights to do what they wanted with the bird. They thought their rights trumped ours or anyone else.
Basically this couple assessed the situation and decided that they had priority on the bird and it didn't matter what consequences that had for us. They had a total lack of consideration and professional etiquette.

In my opinion it would be like having your camera set up and taking a photograph of anything and someone else walking right in front of you and setting up their camera and starting to photograph the same subject, preventing you from getting your shots.

So what's your reputation worth ?

Remember it take a lifetime to build a good reputation but only 20 seconds to ruin it.

So what do people think?
What would you do in this situation on either side of the confrontation?

Final thought, I do not go looking for trouble, never have never will.
Plus I have a VERY GOOD REPUTATION and anyone that knows me will say so. By posting this message I feel I am well with in my rights to point out what took place and how we were as baseball and football players like to say "disrespected us" !

Go Sox !

Shawn,

I was fortunate enough to meet you a couple years back on top of a Mountain. Right then I knew you indeed were a stand up guy and my mind only wavered when I found out you were a Red Sox fan!

Joking aside, good for you! I think they just had no respect for anyone or anything except for themselves. I don't think if I were in your shoes I would have acted any different....well, I probably would have been a little hotter under the collar to be honest. It is a sad commentary that some people think they just come first and "getting the shot" is all that matters.

Good for you, it is always a pleasure to see you in action and hope we will meet again....maybe at Yankee Stadium?

In my opinion it would be like having your camera set up and taking a photograph of anything and someone else walking right in front of you and setting up their camera and starting to photograph the same subject, preventing you from getting your shots.

This has happened to me many times and some big name photographers do this a lot.

Interesting story! I would have been pretty upset about the rudeness of the photographers. I would certainly never tell somebody in the US that they have less right to the photograph because they are from Canada or any other country. But unfortunately, the US is about the most hated country on planet Earth and mistreatment on foreign soil has become pretty much the norm where it used to be pretty much limited to just a few countries (France being the most prominent even before the whole Iraq thing). We just have to deal with it unfortunately. For this reason alone, I would never confront somebody outside the US, even if I am absolutely in the right as you were.

As a Canadian who tries to act ethically, it's certainly not how I would have acted. It's unfortunate that they did, and especially that they made a "we're Canadian and it's our bird" argument. That's patently ridiculous, and I hope it doesn't leave a sour taste in your mouth about Canadians in general.

IMHO, you're certainly not wrong. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do about it. They were obviously not open to any sort of discussion, and with some people, there's just not much recourse.

But unfortunately, the US is about the most hated country on planet Earth and mistreatment on foreign soil has become pretty much the norm where it used to be pretty much limited to just a few countries (France being the most prominent even before the whole Iraq thing). We just have to deal with it unfortunately. For this reason alone, I would never confront somebody outside the US, even if I am absolutely in the right as you were.

I have to disagree with this thinking in regards to almost all Canadians. These people were just your typical jerks ... found on either side of the border I'm afraid.

Honestly, I don't know of very many people who would treat an American poorly just because he/she is an American.

I agree with Pete. People are people, and jerks are jerks. Canada has it's share of them, like and other place. American, British, Latvian... anyone's welcome at my local patch, so long as they've a camera, a pair of binoculars, or a pair of inquisitive eyeballs.

Pete Zwiers wrote:I have to disagree with this thinking in regards to almost all Canadians.

My experiences in Canada have been very good except for one lady in Vancouver that thought I was the devil because i was from the US. I was talking in generalities. American's are not very welcome in many places outside the US these days as we are often stereotyped as war mongerers.

George thanks for the good words and right back at you, always a pleasure photographing with you and the NY crew, except for the Yankees. Which by the way if you get tickets to a Red Sox vs NY game this summer I would make the effort to take a trip to NYC. Also I was in NYC the week before to see The Gates in Central Park, and even managed to see Pale Male and his mate Lola. We even caught a glimps of them near Trump Plaza .......you know....doing it !

By the way I will be at Hawk Mountain next Friday night as the guest speaker for their annual dinner event.
Hope top see you there again this October, who knows maybe the Sox will be in the World Series again but if their not and NY is no rubbing it in.


Jon we did meet two photographers that were from Canada and spent time shooting with them and having a good time.

And Pete you are correct they were Jerks ! But man did it makes us really BS !

Take care.

E.J. Peiker wrote:

Pete Zwiers wrote:My experiences in Canada have been very good except for one lady in Vancouver that thought I was the devil because .

Don't forget the tour bus driver....

Hey Shawn,
Man, it was a pleasure meeting and shooting with you on Saturday. I hope these people didn't spoil your trip - it looked like you had a blast on Saturday, don't let them ruin it. I decided to go to Amherst Island on Sunday, so I missed your "scrum". How was that Italian restaurant I sent you to?
Best,
Chris

Steve Mason wrote:Don't forget the tour bus driver....

He was Japanese - he wanted to kill me!!!

E.J. Peiker wrote: He was Japanese - he wanted to kill me!!!

It was in Alberta. A Japanese bus driver got it in his head that I had cut him off endangering his passengers and saw me later at the Bow Lake overlook and came after me with a weapon. He thought that it had to me simply because I was driving a green Explorer - aparently the only green Explorer in all of Alberta :roll:
I had to disarm him.

Shawn,

I think what happened to you is nothing unusual. Everywhere you have good and bad people. Perhaps they didn't realize what they were doing.

An interesting thread, and I have to agree: a jerk is a jerk no matter the nationality. For years I have advised undergraduates, grad students, progessional students, and taught leadership development. In a nutshell: how much is your reputation worth? It is priceless! It is a measure of one's character, and one's character (or the attributes we assign to character: honesty, loyalty, trustworthiness, flexibility, tolerance, morality,, etc.) is how we, in turn, "measure" a person. One's character is what sets a person apart from another person. I constantly use the old Head and Shoulders shampoo slogan: "...you get one chance to make a first impression." That company made a mint using that slogan for years and years, but the slogan is right to the point.
As to the particular incident described in this thread, another adage comes to mind: "actions speak louder than words." The "baiters" knew quite well what they were doing; their dismissal of your group's commentary only confirmed your measure of them as determined by their baiting activity. I'm not sure I would have confronted them, were I a "foreigner" in their country. The confrontation solved nothing in the final analysis, as theif actions merely confirmed your earlier opinions. Too many cases of "road rage" and people prone to violence these days.

I wouldn't like anyone doing that to me and I wouldn't do that to anyone else. Let's face it, there are jerks on both sides of the border!

I'll have to remember to stay away from Japanese bus drivers.

..

I'd have to agree with Geo. Here in Ireland it was the government policy that got/and still gets grief. Americans themselves are more than welcome.

And I'd also have to agree that this incident had nothing to do with nationality. Just plain old ignorance and stupidity. Some people (and it's sad how regular these reports are becoming) are willing to do whatever they want to get THEIR shot without consideration for anyone else.

I try and work by the reasoning, if you wouldn't want it done to you, don't do it to somebody else. If this means missing a shot because getting it will ruin other peoples opportunity, then so be it. This happened recently enough to me, when I went to see a rare visiting bird which was near my town. When I got there, there were several birders present with huge scopes. Even on a digital body, with 500mm and 1.4 convertor the image was tiny. Now there was a way for me to get closer but the likelyhood of spooking the bird was too great so I passed on it. In the meantime, several more birders arrived on hearing about this visitor. Seeing their excitement, I'm glad I didn't scare it off in the hope of one slightly better image.

From seeing the posts of people on this forum, I'm confident that the vast majority of nature photgraphers are very helpful and considerate, and ethical. You just met one of those unfortunate others that exist in all walks of life.

All the best, Gearoid

Chris it was nice meeting you as well and the rest of my crew thanks you for all your help. As for the Italian restaurant you sent us to, YES, very good call on your part only wish you were able to join us. The chicken parm was very good ! After a very long day of photographing that really hit the spot.

By the way I'm not sure if you would know who these two people are but if you do please pass along our displeasure with what they did. As I wrote in my post it was a couple (young man and women) in there early 30's (just a guess) they were driving a silver four door Honda Civic or Accord. He was using Canon equipment, 500mm or 600mm with a blue camera back pack. Does any of this rings a bell with you ?

Also if you are ever going to be in Massachusetts please lets us know, I have some really good locations to photograph birds and other wildlfe.

Take care.

It's rather amazing that wildlife has brought out the dark side of us humans.