Using live bait for nature Photography?

But the store-bought mice used by "owlers" aren't going to have a chance to mingle with the local wild rodents, are they?

well, if every single mouse released is caught, no, but many of the viruses in question are spread by feces. And I can believe that a store bought mouse might poop while being caught and eaten.

I am watching and photographing GGOs since end of December, 2-3 times per week, usually the whole day shooting...

Although I have never used live bait to attract birds, I did not mind it, at least until one day, about 2 weeks ago.

On this day, I spotted a GGO whose behaviour suggested that it was hunting intensively. I set up my gear and I was waiting for take-off with my eye glued to the viewfinder. I was excited as the bird flew straight at me and it perched at the tree behind me. Of course, I got a nice series of frames and immediately stepped back several meters hoping for more action. Surprisingly enough, the GGO flew towards me again! Wow, what a cooperative bird, I thought! It was gazing at me strangely but I did not care and I step back again... The whole scenario was repeated two more times. However, the last time the owl perched, it was behaving in a way I have never seen before: once it flew to the tree nearby me, it gazed at me intensely and started a real show! It was screeching, making strange poses, shaking its head, nodding etc. I do not know how long this show lasted, maybe half a minute, maybe more. I was stumped, I had no idea what was going on. Finally, the bird flew away, straight towards a group of photographers, that I saw baiting owls with some rodents before... I realized that this owl was begging for a snack!

A few days later, I met with fellow photographer who told me that the day before the GGO swooped down to the rubber band from his BB, when it fell of his hand!

Therefore, now I am definitely against baiting in areas densely populated by humans. I can easily imagine a child dropping a toy and GGO swooping down to pick it up, hoping for it to be an easy meal. If, by any chance, the child got scratched by the bird we would see huge headlines on the first pages of newspapers "Horror in the city: rabid owls attack children!" I do not think it is going to be a good thing for owls. Is there any better reason/excuse to start to shoot those birds?

I am not very concerned about the fate of "2$ mouse" as it will end-up in the stomach anyway. However I hate to see a living creature treated as a piece of garbage. Yes, I have seen mice that were thrown in the air as they were some apple cores. I consider this to be unethical.

Btw, I did not vote as none of the options fit my point of view.

Mike Danzenbaker wrote: I now assume that most of the spectacular owl images posted here and elsewhere, at least those of birds in head-on flight or swooping in for a landing right in front of the photographer, are obtained by baiting or feeding. As one who sells photos, as well as makes them available for educational and awareness purposes where dramatic photos like these can really do some good, I can't realistically compete in a market full of these types of photos, and I must admit to having been feeling the "if I can't beat them maybe I should join them" sentiment. Either I give in and join them, or I concentrate on some other niche of the market.

Mike,
I do not know about pictures posted here, but I can assure you that you can get shots as you described without baiting. At least getting shots of GGOs - I do not have enough experience with other owls. What you need is: a hunting and moderately cooperative owl, warm clothes, a bit of luck and time (unfortunately). Camera and a lens can be useful too.
I have a good collection of such shots myself and as I mentioned before I never use living baits (either in photography or fishing )

Too bad that so many are choosing the "easy way", but that is just human nature.

Tomasz wrote:... Therefore, now I am definitely against baiting in areas densely populated by humans...

Well, you've certainly raised another good point, but again not so much condemning the practice entirely but adding another caveat about how often it should not be done: best not to feed an individual owl often enough to alter its behavior, whether in a densely populated area or not.

Tomasz wrote:I do not know about pictures posted here, but I can assure you that you can get shots as you described without baiting. At least getting shots of GGOs - I do not have enough experience with other owls. What you need is: a hunting and moderately cooperative owl, warm clothes, a bit of luck and time (unfortunately). Camera and a lens can be useful too.
I have a good collection of such shots myself and as I mentioned before I never use living baits (either in photography or fishing )

Too bad that so many are choosing the "easy way", but that is just human nature.

You're probably right, but such photos would take an immense amount of time to obtain by just waiting. A couple of weeks ago I spent 3 days in Sax-Zim intensively working on owls, and only ever saw 5 flights by GGOs. 4 of these were short hops from one perch to the next, and one was brought on by a group feeding mice. None were remotely photo ops. The main problem is that the birds simply weren't hunting much those days, even towards dusk. As if these odds weren't bad enough, what realistic reason could there be for one of these birds to fly straight at a photographer, and swoop in for prey right in front of him/her? Very, very low odds indeed.

Incidentally, in the same 3 days I also watched Hawk Owls, and didn't see a single flight made by one of these at all.

But again, I'm not condemning the practice of feeding mice to owls, in fact I think I've pretty much rationalized it, as long as the mentioned caveats are observed.

One thing not mentioned here is how many owls will completely ignore the bait! The two days that I was with people using mice (and taking advantage of the photo ops) fewer than half the owls (out of a couple dozen) that we showed mice to actually responded. Of the ones that came for mice, one or two took two mice; only one stayed around for more than two.

-Paul

Paul Skoczylas wrote:One thing not mentioned here is how many owls will completely ignore the bait! The two days that I was with people using mice (and taking advantage of the photo ops) fewer than half the owls (out of a couple dozen) that we showed mice to actually responded. Of the ones that came for mice, one or two took two mice; only one stayed around for more than two.

-Paul

Yes, some raptors (such as GGOs) hunt only enough to satisfy immediate needs. This is why they so often seem to be just perching sheepishly and not hunting. Others (such as Hawk Owls) hunt for as long as they can and cache for later any prey that they can't immediately consume.

I would have to say that I'm ethically against the killing of one species for me to simply get a photo.

I have less of a problem with feeding seeds, or nuts or fruit (as long as they are clean and safe). The point made about disease transmission is a good one. I haven't taken many shots of birds through baiting via feeders in my garden for the simple fact that I'd prefer it to be as natural as possible. But that's because I shoot for personal satisfaction, I can see how someone needing a shot for a deadline could need to hurry things along. But for me, live bait is out at any time.
There have also been studies recently that show that birds will use feeders as a means to achieve a certain amount of their energy, but continue to forage for supplementary prey to meet nutritional requirements. So I've less of a problem with feeders as a result.

The point about baiting the animal without giving it the meal can only be seen as cruel in my opinion. Is that not the ultimate in someone being cheap! They're hardly going to bring the prey home afterwards are they??

Paul raised the point about how many ignore the bait. I think that the danger is in younger animals becoming habituated to people feeding, which could affect their long term survival. What if the "new" food source is removed? Older animals should have already developed the hunting skills to fall back on, whereas younger ones, would know no different. This will obviously only be a problem when such baiting happens with regularity.

As has been pointed out already I think it boils down to your personal ethics. But to me a photo obtained by baiting (live) will not have the same merit as one obtained through "natural" means. It is bordering on the wild vs captive debate. The photo may still be a stunner, but the means of achieving it should be disclosed.

For me, the greatest thrill in is seeing nature at it's wildest. I don't want to create any more impact than is absolutely necessary. Just my 2 cents

Perhaps the title of this thread/poll could be changed to "Using live mice to photograph owls". I wasn't aware that was the subject behind it when I voted.

Neil Fitzgerald wrote:Perhaps the title of this thread/poll could be changed to "Using live mice to photograph owls". I wasn't aware that was the subject behind it when I voted.

Good Point!

I guess feeding mice to owls is probably by far the most common live (vertebrate) bait method used by photographers, and with the owl irruptions in N. America right now, this is a hot topic.

My original comment on this thread reflected the huge range of possibilities, some acceptable in my mind, others not. This range could be anywhere from feeding mealworms to birds, to staking out a live mammal for a predator mammal. I didn't vote on the original question for this reason.

-Paul

Perhaps the title of this thread/poll could be changed to "Using live mice to photograph owls". I wasn't aware that was the subject behind it when I voted.

Who said that the mice/owl issue was the real subject behind this poll?
I was asking in broader sense, and I even gave as an example some colleagues who killed a sheep to attract vultures, but with so much killer owl images made possible trough the use of live bait, it was inevitably for the subject to be brought up.
Actually I think the timing is perfect to discuss this problem.

Alexandre Vaz wrote:

Perhaps the title of this thread/poll could be changed to "Using live mice to photograph owls". I wasn't aware that was the subject behind it when I voted.

Who said that the mice/owl issue was the real subject behind this poll?
I was asking in broader sense, and I even gave as an example some colleagues who killed a sheep to attract vultures, but with so much killer owl images made possible trough the use of live bait, it was inevitably for the subject to be brought up.
Actually I think the timing is perfect to discuss this problem.

When I voted, I thought that any and all forms of live baiting were to be considered and based on that I decided I had no opinion on the matter as the range of baiting scenarios was too great for a simple yes no answer. I've never used live bait but I wouldn't have a problem with feeding meal worms to robins. Tying up a goat and waiting for a lion is something else.
The majority of the posts in this thread have commented specifically on mice and owls and without any statements to the contrary I am left to think that this is the subject of the thread. I was simply querying this to help clarify the subject of the poll for those who are yet to vote. I probably went about it the wrong way. I admit to having missed your sheep example.
I don't think I've ever been within 10,000 km of a GGO and wasn't aware that a single shop mouse died in the making of the images posted in Avian. I've only looked at a few of the photos so if it has been made clear in the Avian forum, I'm sorry, I missed it.

Great subject and one I have been thinking about a lot lately, especially with all the recent owl photos which look like they were baited to get the image. I personally don't do it for my images and I work with raptors 99 per cent of the time. I'm working with a pair of adult peregrines now who are feeding on a migratory flock of doves. I imagine if I fed them tame doves I could get some great images, at lot better than the ones I have got so far, but it changes the dynamics of everything and I want an image of a wild bird doing its thing in the wild with no influence from me. It sure makes getting an image a lot harder but I love the challenge. I think images of birds or other animals that were baited in some way to get the shot need to be disclosed. As far as sacrificing an animal for the sake of a photo, its a personal decision. I was going to bring up this question later this week as I will be with greg and arties group photographing bald eagles in Homer Alaska who are being shoveled fish scraps.

Mike Danzenbaker wrote: You're probably right, but such photos would take an immense amount of time to obtain by just waiting. A couple of weeks ago I spent 3 days in Sax-Zim intensively working on owls, and only ever saw 5 flights by GGOs. 4 of these were short hops from one perch to the next, and one was brought on by a group feeding mice. None were remotely photo ops. The main problem is that the birds simply weren't hunting much those days, even towards dusk. As if these odds weren't bad enough, what realistic reason could there be for one of these birds to fly straight at a photographer, and swoop in for prey right in front of him/her? Very, very low odds indeed.

Incidentally, in the same 3 days I also watched Hawk Owls, and didn't see a single flight made by one of these at all.

Sorry you did not have more luck with GGOs...

Regarding pictures... It is usually difficult to tell how much effort a photographer put to record a given picture. For example, I captured my first acceptable flight shot of GGO after about 50 hours spent with those birds. The main reasons were simple: lack of experience and insufficient skills. Now, I know favourite perches of GGOs at Ile Bizard, their favourite fields, where and when they hunt and suddenly everything became easier. Still, there are days when odds seem to be against me, but... C'est la vie.
As far as I know, it is nothing unusual that number of winners is pretty low... Why so many nature photographers are so anxious today?

Tomasz wrote:... Still, there are days when odds seem to be against me, but... C'est la vie.
As far as I know, it is nothing unusual that number of winners is pretty low... Why so many nature photographers are so anxious today?

I agree with you, and I think you partly answered your own question in your earlier post: "...that is just human nature." Also, in this day and age, most of us are busier and have less time, and nature photography (both its practitioners and their equipment) improves by leaps and bounds. Yesterday's top drawer images are tomorrow's rejects. Trying to keep up drives some of us to lengths we wouldn't have gone a few years ago. In some ways it's good, in some ways not.

How about sacrificing animals for the sake of a good steak?
artie

Arthur Morris wrote:How about sacrificing animals for the sake of a good steak?

...or killing worms to use as bait for fish so that people can eat them (or mount them on walls)...

Ethical discussions often don't lend themselves to simplistic polls.

Just yesterday I saw a poll, "Do you think Michael Jackson is guilty."

Pajamas or not, his trial isn't over so it may be premature to make that assessment.

(Although 90% of the 20,000 respondents voted "yes.")

Fasten your seatbelts! Here we go again!

Here is a real simple way of looking at all of this stuff. If it is not against any laws or regulations and I am OK with it and you are not then that is your problem. If you wish to believe that I should not do this or that and that upsets you, then you are simply choosing to punish yourself with your own thoughts... (See http://www.thework.org.) Also, from the same web site: There are only three kinds of business: my business, your business, and God's business... Think about that in the context above.

best and love to all, artie

Thats all good Artie and i fully understand where your coming from. I have no problem's with what you do or anyone else. Its not my business and i certainly cant do anything about it. But next time your up in homer throwing fish for a picture you might wanta ask yourself whos business are you really in? Just a thought! The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. A little bird told me that

robert..............

One thing is for sure Robert, I am not in your business.
am