Are you on the fence about consuming animals.....

 
 
 Quite some time ago I rented a fairly run down house in the country, because I just wanted to be out there. This is way before I started taking pictures. The old farm house was adjacent to a large pasture with maybe 30 cows...? were they dairy, meat, what breed?...I still have no idea. But the unique thing that was, the fencing actually incorporated two sides of the house as part of the restrictive area the cows were corralled into. The fence was attached to my rented house. My bedroom actually then was open by two windows at the corner of the house, and were open to the pasture. I moved there in the winter, so the windows were closed all the time to keep the heat in. But come spring they were wide open ....and one window had no screen at the time-one of those old fashioned wooden framed jobs which rot out before the rest of the wooden window frame did. So one morning, as I slowly left the dream world for the early morning reality of the world already in motion, I was startled to say the least to find that a cow had inserted it's whole head through the window and was sniffing my blankets. I kind of yelled, but not in fright or anything I was just startled. She pulled back some, but stopped when she realized via some soft words from me that I didn't really mind her visit. I was curious...she was curious. After a very short time I was stroking her long nose...something I have never even thought of doing before to a cow. She was affectionate, personable, fun. Yet I was still rather in a state of shock to be having anything on the level of a friendship level with a 800 pound beast( or whatever they weigh). She was sweet. Very sweet...and gentle. Mind you I am still in bed...waking up...no coffee. Well don't you know I started leaving the window open everyday after that and just about everyday she visited me in the early country morning by poking her head in. One of those life changing experiences I guess one could say.......
 
See the thing is I never thought of those big, lumbering. awkward looking animals like I did a cat or a dog or a parakeet. Yet she was lovely to behold and lovely to befriend...just like all those other warm cuddly pets I knew...I just could not pick her up and cuddle her or anything. What a disconnect my life had been to that point in time.
 
 
 
Eating animals and using animal products is what is destroying the planet. It is causing the greatest loss of habitat for native species and is the number one cause of greenhouse gases surpassing all other sources. Yet we all seem to be looking the other way..
 
 
I have been going vegetarian, you know not eating meat, but still eating eggs, milk, and cheese and such, but having to eat just some vegetables and a potato on a plate was getting very old. I very fortunately ran into someone who just happened to be vegan and directed me to a few good recipes. This initial intro has lead me on to a virtual yellow brick road to one of my very favorite destinations.....FOOD!!!!! I never knew what a cornucopia of wonderful delicious dishes there are now out there for anyone wanting to make the change. And now it has changed me. Forget all those ridiculous vege burgers in the frozen department and simple vege pouches with some seasoning or sauce...vegan cooking is without a doubt the best and most enjoyable food I have ever ate. I know now my body was actually in a state of starvation for it.  I could sense this. Has nothing to do with treatment of animals at this point, it's just that another night of spaghetti with a bottle of sauce or some meat, veg, & potatoes regimen was getting to be a total turn off
 
We all must stop consuming meat, eggs, milk, cheese, and other animal products if we want to save the planet. I am not touching on all the implications here right now, but this is what is destroying us mostly. And it descends way deeper than good treatment of animals or a healthy diet. We are addicted.
 
 
 I thought this was a very forthright and poignant video that illustrates very well what we are all so dreadfully caught up in....
 
 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4HJcq8qHAY
 
 
Please do watch it....
 
 
It's about a higher consciousness, which leads to enlightenment, which leads to a better you......
 
 
 
Paul
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

As you discovered cows are remarkably affectionate animals.

In regards to meat, dairy, etc., whenever I am asked, I always try to convince people that every time they buy something, they make a decision to support whatever it is they buy. Food is no exception. If one goes to the mega grocery supermarket and purchases the cheapest ground beef or pork you can find or buy the least expensive milk, it is most likely supporting some of the most abusive farming on the planet, with all of its inherent effects on the planet. To add insult to injury, most of these operations are aided by the US government through subsidies.

TO THE POINT of my post
I can't espouse one lifestyle over another as it's not my place, but I do want to people to think before they buy. When you choose organic over conventional you have made a choice. When you choose grass fed, free range over feed lot, you have made a choice. When you choose something local over something flown in from halfway around the world, you have made a choice. When you buy products tested on unwilling animals over those tested on willing humans, you have made a choice. We can't make the right choice all the time due to financial constraints, convenience, etc. However, when each of us makes those choices enough, the effects add up. That's why even the large grocery chains jumped on the organic bandwagon... it's good business (even though all the while they and the large food producers continue to lobby as hard as they can to dilute the standards of what "organic" means - whenever money is involved someone will look for a cheaper way to do it at the expense of the very thing they try to do.)

Thanks for sharing your great story. My favorite cow interactions are the ones with the cows that used to come to the fence and lick my Labrador Retriever's face with their massive tongues - he couldn't get enough of them!

Cheers,
Ted Culotta

Thanks Ted...Yeah the "organic" label for me has no value. Just as "un-caged" chickens sounds nice, but it's almost just as bad as caged. Everyone knows how advertising works by using repetition. The more one hears it, or the more they hear different people saying it, the more they believe. We have all been indoctrinated. That's why I linked the video because this guy exposes these false beliefs. And subconscious beliefs are what governs our actions and emotions. What's troubling me is that collectively we are putting great emphasis on many things to try and help the planet and it's inhabitants, yet they biggest problem is getting little press. This is changing maybe and I hope that what I am seeing in young people beginning to catch on is true. My hope is a counter culture to the status quo like we saw in the late 60's and seventies might be upon us soon. I found a lot of young people on the net whose brains are not conditioned and are open are becoming vegan.

That was a nice cow story with your Lab....I wonder how many other cow stories might be out there. Did you have a chance to watch the video..?


Paul

When is the planet coming to an end?

"When is the planet coming to an end?"


According to the 4 or 5 usual posters in this forum, any day now.

EGrav wrote:"When is the planet coming to an end?"


According to the 4 or 5 usual posters in this forum, any day now.

To Mike Veltri and EGrav:

Please give us your general characterizations of the state of the Biosphere.  I am almost 66 yoa and I have never seen so many serious problems globally.  But, maybe I am wrong.  

I would be most interested in your perspective.

To be fair, I do not think anyone has ever said "The planet is coming to an end".   I think we all agree that the planet will be here if and when we humans are no longer able to make it.

About Paul's posting:  

I took the time to watch much of the video, and I learned that animals are currently being slaughtered at a rate of 300 every second, just to satiate our lust for their flesh. And we do not need to eat them for our survival.  They like to live as much as we do.  

So I do not understand the reason for your response of……."When is the planet coming to an end?"  From my perspective, the attitude reflected in such a comment is the very crux of much of the Planet's problems; i.e. most people are either ignorant to the man-induced sicknesses of the Biosphere, do not agree that man is part of the problem or….they do not care.  That is my perspective.

So please give us your perspective.   


Robert King

The planet will always be, but the problem is will we have a planet filled with natural beauty and wonder through it's animals and plants or will we have just us. A lot of us. This is what the 4 or 5 usual posters are trying to have not happen. What good is a world to live in without nature? End of living and the beginning of survival.....

pleverington wrote:The planet will always be, but the problem is will we have a planet filled with natural beauty and wonder through it's animals and plants or will we have just us. A lot of us. This is what the 4 or 5 usual posters are trying to have not happen. What good is a world to live in without nature? End of living and the beginning of survival.....

On a similar thread a while back I had suggested one should read the excellent book by a Yale professor titled 'Every Twelve Seconds' reflecting the frequency at which a cow is killed in just one slaughterhouse in Omaha. It is written by Timothy Pachirat who went undercover to work in this place. It is actually a very interesting book regardless of your own inclinations. It has now become the law in some states that nobody can film inside a slaughterhouse or write anything derogatory about them.

As with everything else, it is money and big corporations that drive the meat industry which is in turn heavily subsidized by the government. Does one really think it takes just one dollar to produce a pound of beef?

I am not a vegetarian although I grew up in a household without eggs, meat, poultry or fish - like most Indians did or still do. In rural India, cows are treated as members of the family, fed and cared for like you would your dog or cat. They are given names and mourned when they die. This tradition is slowly being eroded by urbanization and the advance of the big dairy industry. Cows, unlike popular Western belief, are not sacred in India, they are just respected and considered sentient enough to not want to eat them. And yet, there are many Indians who do eat beef and it is sold in most parts of the country.

I always ask people who object to such 'sentimentality' if they would be willing to eat dogs or cats in this country? If not, then why not? There are significant restrictions in the law against butchering or eating dogs in the Western world and yet the Chinese and Vietnamese relish them.

It is a well known medical fact that diets rich in red meat and fats are bad for you on many levels, the recent report is nothing new but there is, as usual so much opposition from vested interests that society will continue to consume unhealthy foods at an alarming rate. If you don't know about it please look up the epidemic of childhood and teenage obesity, all related to consumption of high-calorie foods. Nobody is doing anything about it, there is just too much money invested in soft drinks and fast food.

The planet will survive, for sure, but it may not be the same one we are living on. We too will survive, and yet will not be who we are today. In a world where cruelty against humans is widespread and routine, why worry about animals? Why then stop at eating just animals?

Being my usual cynical self.......

Pradeep

tedculotta wrote:When you buy products tested on unwilling animals over those tested on willing humans, you have made a choice. 

People need to realise that "those products ... tested on willing humans" fall into two categories: 

(1) products which have a very, very long history of human use and which have been shown by long exposure to humans to (probably) be benign but are tested in order to meet some licensing need etc - for example, something like lanolin or similar used in certain cosmetics.

(2) products about which we really do not know the safety/toxicity details and these will have been tested on animals in pre-clinical trials prior to being tested on humans, willing or not. Drugs and industrial chemicals for example, cleaning agents, certainly anything people might ingest one way or another.

Simply put - no regulatory authority on the planet will permit tests in humans unless there is prior pre-clinical evidence that they stand a good chance of not causing harm. If you don't do that you end up some very dead or otherwise harmed people.  Animal testing of some sort usually comes into the process somewhere along the way - cannot be avoided, nor should it be.  I am sure it is possible to live a life without coming into contact with animal tested substances but it would a very restricted and limited life - and probably a short one as you would not have the benefit of modern medicine.

baldsparrow wrote:

tedculotta wrote:When you buy products tested on unwilling animals over those tested on willing humans, you have made a choice. 

People need to realise that "those products ... tested on willing humans" fall into two categories: 

(1) products which have a very, very long history of human use and which have been shown by long exposure to humans to (probably) be benign but are tested in order to meet some licensing need etc - for example, something like lanolin or similar used in certain cosmetics.

(2) products about which we really do not know the safety/toxicity details and these will have been tested on animals in pre-clinical trials prior to being tested on humans, willing or not. Drugs and industrial chemicals for example, cleaning agents, certainly anything people might ingest one way or another.

Simply put - no regulatory authority on the planet will permit tests in humans unless there is prior pre-clinical evidence that they stand a good chance of not causing harm. If you don't do that you end up some very dead or otherwise harmed people.  Animal testing of some sort usually comes into the process somewhere along the way - cannot be avoided, nor should it be.  I am sure it is possible to live a life without coming into contact with animal tested substances but it would a very restricted and limited life - and probably a short one as you would not have the benefit of modern medicine.

Like I said, why worry about animals when we do worse to humans..........

Pradeep

First of all, Paul said, "It is causing the greatest loss of habitat for native species and is the number one cause of greenhouse gases surpassing all other sources." That's completely made up. I have no idea where he got that idea. I'll put a link at the bottom actually citing real facts which prove that to be incredibly false. (Hint: Electricity being the ACTUAL greatest) In the U.S. Agriculture is actually the SMALLEST producer of greenhouse gas. Unfortunately, Paul's statement is the type of rhetorical misinformation being rapidly spread about.

Second, I'm not against vegans, in fact I think it's really a noble lifestyle because they clearly recognize the value of animals, but I think some are a little misguided...

Here's some info to "chew" on:

In 2013, more than 482,100 workers in the U.S. were employed in the meat and poultry packing and processing industries. Their combined salaries total more than $19 billion. Through its production and distribution linkages, the meat and poultry industry impacts firms in all 509 sectors of the U.S. economy, in every state and every congressional district in the country. In all, companies involved in meat production, along with their suppliers, distributors, retailers and ancillary industries employ 6.2 million people in the U.S. with jobs that total $200 billion in wages. Through direct taxes paid, these companies and their employees provide $81.2 billion in revenues to federal, state and local governments. The consumption of meat and poultry generates $2.4 billion in state sales taxes. The meat and poultry industry's economic ripple effect generates $864.2 billion annually to the U.S. economy, or roughly 6% of the entire GDP. In 2014, meat and poultry industry sales totaled $186 billion.

It's reeeeeaally important to our economy. What's the vegan plan to fill this economic void? I love animals too, but I'm also a realist. 

Some more "food for thought," What happens to domestic livestock? They can't just be set free. I just want everyone to realize there will be no reason to have the loveable cows you're talking about, there are no such things as wild cows, at least not in the U.S. And they can NOT just be released into the wild. You think people wreak havoc on the environment, wait until you see what domestic diseases do to wild animals. The desert bighorn sheep nearly went extinct because of brief contact with domestic sheep. Should we save domestic livestock at the expense of wildlife? No. Should we save domestic animals at the expense of our economy? No. Should we look for more sustainable common sense ways of producing and consuming meat? Yes. I also think we as humans do need to switch toward a more plant-based diet, but that's for medical reasons not moral ones.

Below is info from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife department regarding the economic impact of hunting, another CONSERVATION method which would go away in a vegan world. After all, don't forget hunters were the original conservationists, the first to call upon the government to protect our resources and wildlife for future generations to enjoy.

It creates more than 700,000 jobs nationwide. New studies now show that annual spending by America's 14 million hunters amounts to $22.1 billion. By comparison, and if hypothetically ranked as a "corporation," that revenue figure would put hunting in thirty-fifth place on the Fortune 500 list of America's largest businesses, right between J.C. Penney and United Parcel Service.
The impact of the American economy of all that spending is extraordinary. When the spending figure was "crunched" recently by economic analysts to account for "ripple" or economic multiplier effects, hunters' spending was shown to have:

• Created a nationwide economic impact of about $61 billion.
• Supported 704,600 million jobs, or nearly 1 percent of America's entire civilian labor force, in all sectors of the American economy. Created household income (salaries and wages) totaling 416.1 billion, which is roughly equivalent to 25 percent of America's entire military payroll.
• Added $1.4 billion to state tax revenues, or nearly 1 percent of all annual state tax revenues combined.
• Contributed $1.7 billion in federal income taxes, which equates to almost half of the entire federal budget for commerce.

Ducks Unlimited, alone, has influenced and conserved 132,078,557 acres of land just in North America as of January this year.

If people are going to continue living alongside certain wildlife species like geese and deer, their populations absolutely MUST be managed or they will quickly destroy their own resources, not to mention the diseases and inbreeding they'll suffer when the numbers get over saturated.

I just want to know what the plan is to keep all those people employed, keep all that money flowing into our economy, and will simultaneously serve to conserve our lands and wildlife in a vegan world.

People will never stop eating meat completely, never. Be realistic. I say focus all that positive energy and brainstorming toward plans to make the industry more sustainable instead of working to eliminate it.

I know some of that may sound kind of cold and greedy since most of it deals with the economy, but again, I'm realistic and know the world runs on money, not smiles and rainbows...

Greenhouse Gas Emission Facts

-

RickEvansTheThird wrote:
People will never stop eating meat completely, never. Be realistic. I say focus all that positive energy and brainstorming toward plans to make the industry more sustainable instead of working to eliminate it.

I know some of that may sound kind of cold and greedy since most of it deals with the economy, but again, I'm realistic and know the world runs on money, not smiles and rainbows...

Greenhouse Gas Emission Facts

-

You are so right, Rick. The world does run on money and not smiles. That is the problem, always has been. That, and the lust for power has given us two major world wars in the past century and countless other conflicts resulting in the deaths of millions of human beings.

So, if employment of people and generation of money is the goal to aim for, then perhaps we should expand the  MIC some more, it already dwarfs the hunters of animals in terms of people employed and the economics thereof. Let us make and sell more arms around the world so we can then go and 'intervene' later. Keep lots of people employed, keep the media busy and then we can do whatever in the name of 'security'.

I am a realist and therefore I am NOT a vegetarian. However, I would love for meat to be priced as it really should, as it is in poor parts of the world where there is no subsidy, where the government and the industry is not bombarding people with ads exhorting them to eat more meat. That would discourage people from eating as much of it as they do.

You have put forward arguments supporting the status quo. Nothing to refute the various ills - moral, environmental, economical (do you really think a pound of meat is cheaper than a pound of lentils?) and finally, if nothing else will convince anybody the health risks of rampant consumption of animal products.

And talking simply of economics, if you need scientific data, please go through this one, guaranteed to give you a headache - that is not my intention, honestly . It just illustrates the real cost to the society which is cleverly hidden by the pro-meat lobby.

There is no ideal society, no utopia. But we can strive to be more humane, have more empathy for creatures that have every right to this planet as we do. Not so long ago, some humans were treated no better than animals, were even called that. It is possible then to be a little more caring towards animals too. Societal progress should not simply be measured in terms of how many people own smart phones, but how we as human beings are doing more for each other and our home, this beautiful earth.

Pradeep

Pradeep thanks for the enlightenments from India. Interesting and telling how a cow there could be a whole different thing from a cow here and true enough it all boils down to the belief system of that country or region. Not at all necessary to be a part of any religion or anything either.
 
Not that where I live is typical of other areas of the country, but I have been here for 30 years. At this time the neighborhood has become 50% black  and 50% white. I would very honestly say at least 85% of all peoples in this city are hideously obese. It is disgustingly sad. I bring up the black element because they are almost all obese, some to the point of looking like they stuff their super sized clothing with gigantic water balloons. I apologize if this offends anyone's senses, but obesity in the US is not only a disease epidemic, but it is contributing to enormous sums of money being spent on medical needs that then are leading to unaffordable health insurance, loss of capital productivity, mental health problems, and a plethora of other  things. The US is a laughing stock of the world.
 
But maybe using Ricks wayward logic we should all be happy knowing that all these poor obese people are creating jobs and then tax revenue from those jobs from the oversized clothing outlets, to unlimited red meat production from animals, to the employed doctors to fix them, to weight loss clinics and magic pills, to whatever...it's all good ....right? All that money is so good for the economy!
 
Hey... you are what you eat....eat cow and guess what?

How hard is it to get in and see a doctor these days?? Gotta make an appointment a month ahead of time......

We are very sick because of our terrible eating habits, which include a huge imbalance of how much meat we consume.

Paul
 
 

Hey Rick--
 
The link you provided is one you  should understand better. Methane "by Gas" in the pie chart  is represented as a smaller amount  but you must realize, the reality, is that to have our animal products, we produce a lot of CO2...and nitrous oxide(from the chart 8%) ...and fluorinated gases. If one doesn't take in the whole picture one is not seeing the whole picture. But since methane is 25 TIMES more powerful than CO2 it is the major greenhouse gas that can be more than others dealt with..if we desire so.. OK? Now that's only part of the story. Go to the USDA site and read abut how much of our agricultural land is being used to grow crops to feed the animals. All those crops, 60-70%, need water, fertilizers, harvesting, railroad transport, stores,  trucks, equipment and supplies who all then their  manufacturing greenhouse affects, etc, etc.....Keep drilling down and you will then be enlightened to the real story....you said your a realist right??  The environmental costs for the infrastructure for animal products CANNOT be ignored or discounted. IT IS MIND BOGGLING !!. Ok... then realistically, the total package, not just the measured methane at the cow level, is that the majority of our agricultural land is being used for animal product and must also be counted in to the equation...if providing one truly wants to be a realist.
 
And what's with this money is my God crap??
 
Hey .....maybe we should let all the forests  be cut down cause the lumber is a valuable economic asset and the lumber industry needs their jobs and they pay a lot of taxes...
 
Or maybe keep letting those unemployed fisherman up in Canada to keep slaughtering baby seals in front of their mothers because they just have to have something to do that can make them money...and they pay a lot of tax too....right?
 
Heck..let's get totally real...we have a lot of natural resources left...why don't we let anyone who can make a buck have at it and let them make a lot of money, employ a lot of people, and then pay all that tax  and wouldn't the economy be unbelievable then?? While we are at it some profitable wars would be great for the economy too! They always are....
 
Watch this Rick and  get back to the thread..
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qhbso9UQ_E
 
Smiles and rainbows is liberal bashing...give it up and come to the table of realty...We are not the enemy...
 
 
Paul
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Hi Rick

I can little improve on Primus's and Paul's comments.  You two give me hope.  

Rick, your economic argument for the meat industry is not reasonable or moral.  

We already have major issues with one of capitalism's basic tenets; i.e. if something is profitable, it is justifiable.  Bunk!  
 
If we can begin to convince the masses to demand zero pop growth from their governments, then we can work to change their thinking.  

It's all for not without zero pop.  

Robert

I watched the video. It's sad. Want to CHANGE the agriculture business then do that. There's some great material in the video to build a case to CHANGE how the industry is run. I'm not opposed to that. Outright abolition is not the answer.

You guys are too emotionally attached to this issue. I'll trust when the EPA says agriculture is the smallest producer of greenhouse gas (methane + CO2) they mean that. Their reporting on the effects of greenhouse gases is far more complete than your simplified "meat is the devil" idea. You don't understand the charts, my friends.

Who said money is God? I didn't. We're talking about people here.

Zero population growth is the best idea I've heard yet. Good luck convincing people NOT to have kids. I've already decided not to have any. So I've done my part toward the zero pop growth. Fewer people means EVERY slice of that EPA greenhouse gas pie gets a chunk removed. STOP HAVING KIDS. ADOPT IF YOU WANT ONE. You don't need 10 kids in your family. Talk about unsustainable. I'm 100% on-board with this.

"Hey .....maybe we should let all the forests be cut down cause the lumber is a valuable economic asset and the lumber industry needs their jobs and they pay a lot of taxes...

Or maybe keep letting those unemployed fisherman up in Canada to keep slaughtering baby seals in front of their mothers because they just have to have something to do that can make them money...and they pay a lot of tax too....right?"

Did I suggest deforestation or the indiscriminate killing of seals anywhere in my response? Not even in the slightest way. Again, you're emotions are getting the best of you. Saying, "Smiles and rainbows is liberal bashing," means you've got nowhere to go than to attack my perceived political affiliations. How mature. It's not "liberal bashing," Rachel Maddow. It's called hyperbole to educated people.

I'm not going to debate this any further. I've put in my two cents (Change not Abolish) and you've put in yours (Eliminate a global industry). You guys can continue stroking each others egos over how good you feel about being vegan, but the scientifically-gained statistics I posted from credible resources will remain for you to gloss over if you feel like being realistic.

Yuh, thanks Rick on that.  You came half way.  Good for you. that is important. Good for you…and us.  :)

I have moved my comment to another topic….something like…."No, I do not think I am nuts"  :)

Well the only thing you got right was to watch the video Rick. And thanks for giving it a shake.
 
Briefly:
 
You DID make argument that money and economics was a higher and more realistic priority -
 

It's reeeeeaally important to our economy. What's the vegan plan to fill this economic void? I love animals too, but I'm also a realist. - See more at: http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 9nmVO.dpuf

So why are you surprised that you come across rather materialistic and short to others that believe no activity we do as occupants of this planet should continue if it damages or misuses it. Do you think as a nature lover, animals should be crowded into miserable confinement and slaughtered by the billions and billions to feed another species who slowly but surely is decimating the planet in so many other ways?? I doubt you do. It has nothing to do with nature anymore. Abuse and misuse of animals is high on a lot of peoples not to do list. But we are caught up in a trap of our own making because of our belief systems.
 
My examples you claim I said you had said were analogies to illuminate how silly your comment above sounds--and I know you got it--but you chose to deflect the truth content of it by making a false claim that I said you said these things. A very common tactic to try and make things something that weren't. No you didn't say the we should harvest all the trees for the poor lumber industry or slaughter as many seals as possible so those poor guys could have jobs  and pay taxes so our economies can flourish...and Rick I never said you said those things.
 
So I'll spell it out for you in another way. My point is this:
 
There are things that have value in life even if they do not have economic value to each and every human being. Can we agree on that one??
And could we agree that people act and do things according to what their belief systems tell them is the truth...?
 
So yuaaah, when someone, you in this case, puts out rhetoric that claims we must continue the way we use, abuse, and misuse animals, why then would that person (you in this case), be surprised that others will interpret your statements as putting the value of money profits above that of  ethical and reasonable treatment and use of animals? People choose their Gods...no??  Then they worship those Gods..no? Your words give it away. You did make repeated reference over and over to the value of the money to be made in the animal consumer sector and the best you could do for a positive comment in favor of a vegan lifestyle was that they are misguided. And you did say your comments sound "cold and greedy"...true enough they are.....But now your surprised people take your belief system to be "place the worth of money over nature"??
 
So what do you think the usual 4 or 5 posters are voicing their protests for??
Stroking their egos........??????? I can't believe you would say something so short sighted as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with ego.
 
A couple of more things then I'll leave it be.. No one said get rid of and abolish the meat industry, and no one said it was evil, and no one said just everybody stop eating meat and let all the animals go free. Only YOU said these things.
 
Here's what I did say:
 
1)Eating too much meat, especially red meat is making us sick and obese. Gorging ourselves at the fast food places and backyard barbecue is decimating our health. Obesity is a major health problem in the United States and now the rest of the world. It costs way more to fix these people than it would if they were healthy. The cost, monetarily and life quality wise, is so beyond any value the meat industry can claim as beneficial to society, is so disproportionate, as to be laughable. To think otherwise, is again, very sort sighted. 
 
2)Eating vegan is delicious . This I did not know until I got going with the huge volume of recipes now out there. The incredible variety of flavor choices is thrilling. I personally just got tired of eating rom the meat- eggs -dairy merry go round. Seriously, I'm wore out on that kind of food and needed something completely new, and as it turned out, unknown to me.  Serendipitously I have discovered the cuisine value of vegan cooking. I was going to just go with vegetarian, but the fantastic flavors of vegan all the way is getting me hooked. So here on this one it has nothing to do with animals, it's just simply great tasting eating...
 
3)People who care about animals and don't like how they are treated and then slaughtered will feel better on the deepest levels if they stop consuming them, or at least do so in a very sparse and measured way. This is guaranteed. I can't, and neither can any other one person, change the world, or  even change another's mind, but, if we make healthy choices, wise choices, ethical choices, choices that make us feel better about ourselves, we can by example have influence over others. And if enough people also then go this way then even more people will see it, become aware, gain a greater consciousness, and then elevate themselves to be a much happier, serene individual.
 
That is what I said Rick...
 
All this other stuff like if we don't control the wild animals with our little pop guns and bows and arrows or we will be overloaded with diseases and animal overpopulation comes from where?? These things are not even relevant to the discussion. But they do reveal your willingness to deflect and belies your very short sighted biased view of the planet and it's natural ecosystems. Granted I don't think anyone has that one down complete cause it's a huge subject, but all your views sound like that I hear frequently from those "sport hunters".  Especially the ducks unlimited thing where it's like ducks unlimited is saving the natural world and no one else is doing much at all. So we are all supposed to swallow the proposition that sport  hunters are the heroes. Complete bunk.. Or nearly so.
 
Deer are overpopulated BECAUSE of over hunting. As crazy as that sounds there is a tremendous volume of scientific study and observation that confirms it. Start another thread though if you want to hear more about  that crazy notion....
 
And this:
 
 

 After all, don't forget hunters were the original conservationists, the first to call upon the government to protect our resources and wildlife for future generations to enjoy

Is completely and patently false. Hunters were not the original conservationists, and neither was Teddy Roosevelt the original founder of the parks or any conservationist movement for that matter. I made many posts  years ago in a discussion which highlighted the unknown people who are forgotten, but are the real people who got it all going ---and they weren't hunters. I'll look for it and post reference to if I can find it. But even on the DNR website somewhere they themselves clear up the myths that Teddy and all the other hunters are the one's who got it all started. Keep an open mind and ask questions...
 
 
 
 
 
Paul
 
 

Rick- read this:

http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/200 ... index.html

I've run out of time for the moment for more info but just give it a read and understand that a simple chart does not reveal the complete truth and very often misleads to false conclusions. Similar to sports and their stats do not give the entire picture.




"Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth’s entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing."


"And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia, which contributes significantly to acid rain."

" It generates 65 percent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure."

"Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock’s presence in vast tracts of land and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss; 15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline, with livestock identified as a culprit."

One of the problems with this sort of a discussion is that one man's meat really is another man's poison. Viewpoints differ and necessarily so, for that is the great thing about being human. It is also a given that we would defend our own perspective and our actions to the bitter end, it would be impossible to live with ourselves otherwise.

As long as humans think of themselves first, we will continue to have not just major wars and conflicts around the world but also continue to slowly but surely destroy our planet.

Pradeep