Getting together for phototravel?

I'm hoping to start a discussion and even a trend, so if I step on anyone's toes of if this doesn't belong on this site please let me know.

I think most of us on this site are amateurs at varying skill levels. Most of us sign up for photo workshops and "phototours" from time to time, and we all gain a lot out of doing so. Available workshops are varied and there is something for just about everyone. I know that some of the participants and moderators here lead terrific workshops and give seminars and no doubt derive a significant part of their income from doing so. So let me state right off that it's not my intention to impact that or take anything away from anyone offering workshops. Part of the price often includes the effort of putting the package together, plus instruction in the field. And part of the reason people like me sign up for them is the benefit of not having to do all that ourselves (ie, make extensive travel arrangements, track down good guides, etc.)

But part of the reason is pure comaraderie -- the joy of being with others with similar interests who understand the schedule we want to live by on these trips, what we're looking for, how to behave in a blind, etc.

Workshops can't be everywhere, and many of us (I think, and hope to verify here) don't really need an instructor in the field all the time. It's often possible to hire the same guides used by the pros, and arrange similar trips, or trips where no workshop goes, with a little time and effort, or by trial and error. And at a significantly lower cost.

I think that many of us have contacts and experiences to share, places we hope to go or go back to, and would do so if we had a group to make it safer/ more affordable/ enjoyable. What would others think about a forum or thread that would include the possibility of hooking up to go to such places? Say you have always wanted to go to Churchill to photograph polar bears, and there is a group rate for 6 people and you only have yourself -- would it be kosher to "advertise" on this site for 5 others who want to go with you, even though workshops exist for that location?

Or, I have wanted for a long time to visit Peru's Manu region (among others), and so far South America has been largely ignored by photo workshop leaders. What if I put together an itinerary and posted an invitation here? I wouldn't be making money but might get a discount from the tour operator for being the organizer; OTOH all participants would benefit with a group rate and by being with photogs. Would this be a problem? Welcome? Would you be likely to join such a group? Is there some place you'd like to go but haven't gone because of logistics and the randomness of quality commercial tours and the people you wind up traveling with?

I know this is long, but I'm very interested in others' thoughts. I tried to organize something like this through NANPA some years ago and they seemed to like the idea but follow-through was nonexistent.

So what do you think?

Lillian (Member 130)

Very interesting topic and one I am keenly interested in. I have been "leading" (well really organizing..and hiring a guide) trips the last few years, having taken 2 trips to Costa Rica and 1 trip to Ecuador (Tandayapa and the surrounding valley). The photography opportunities in both of these places is unbelievable. I am going to Brazil this year and Ecuador again next year probably.

Logistically organizing such a thing can be difficult, but after doing it 3 times now, I think I have a lot of it down. I do a LOT of research ahead of time on where to go, when to go, etc. It takes some work, but it pays off in the long run. I could easily organize a trip(s) to Ecuador and ensure a photographer get 20+ hummingbirds, 20+ tanagers, possibilities at Antpittas, Antbirds, Trogons etc without any question in my mind as to whether or not that promise is valid. I'd be interested to hear the take of people like Greg and Heather and EJ etc. All of the workshops organized by the owners of the site are in the US or Canada.

Lillian,

I think this sort of "cost sharing" for trips is a good idea and we have talked about this before. I think it was Darwin who posted something a while back about a specific cost sharing adventure.

If you are to benefit from a discount for organizing it I don't see a problem with that as long as you aren't paying for your trip with other people's money, nor are you the collector of the money. Then it becomes a formal "tour" and should not be advertised here. Do realize that often time workshops end up that way as well and no-one (besides the big names) really makes any significant amount of money doing them, which is why we all still have full-time day jobs, but that is another issue….

If you are simply organizing a trip where everyone is sharing the costs (and paying equal amounts) in order to fill a minimum head count, and it is not a workshop or tour, then that is welcomed here and I am sure you will find people who are interested.

If, on the other hand, you are advertising something that is already set-up and is a commercial tour, such as the Polar Bears in Churchill, then I think that is better handled off-site or posted in our workshops forum simply because it is a formal tour already set-up by a commercial enterprise and someone is profiting from having already organized it. It then falls under the definition of "advertising", whether you are the operator or not, which is not allowed per our posting guidelines unless it is in the workshops forum.

There may seem like a fine line here, and there is, but perhaps we can deal with these on a case by case basis. I think just to be sure that it is ok you should e-mail me, Heather or E.J. before posting anything.

Another idea would be to create a separate forum, sort of a floating regional chapter, for discussion and organization of such events. I would love to set this up if there is enough interest.

Please understand our position in not allowing advertising in the forums, we made this decision from the start and feel it is important to keep the site focused and not turn it into a bunch of infomercials from workshop and tour leaders.

But again, I think we can work something out here to the benefit of the members and I am open to suggestions on how to handle it without compromising our guidelines.

Greg Downing wrote: If, on the other hand, you are advertising something that is already set-up and is a commercial tour, such as the Polar Bears in Churchill, then I think that is better handled off-site or posted in our workshops forum simply because it is a formal tour already set-up by a commercial enterprise and someone is profiting from having already organized it.

Actually, what I'm referring to are the fact that even workshop leaders often hire local guides, and those guides are available to other groups. Most of the places I am thinking of would require some amount of local assistance, or the involvement of an organization -- it's not just a matter of buying an air ticket and making hotel reservations. But they don't lead tours, they simply provide tundra buggies etc. Does that make it different?

Another idea would be to create a separate forum, sort of a floating regional chapter, for discussion and organization of such events. I would love to set this up if there is enough interest.

Great idea! It could be in the same forum as the "please advise on this location" questions. It would probably be less visited than the other forums, so questions would tend to remain more visible.

Thanks for your input, Greg. Your position certainly makes sense which is why I approached it this way.

Lillian

Lillian,

Another thing to keep in mind - if anyone is officially acting as guide (whether professional or just someone in the group who is famiiar with the area) - make sure to check for any regulations regarding guiding in the proposed area. I recently found out that all forms of guiding are strictly prohibited in Zion canyon and had to cancel a private tour I was hired to guide.
Many public places have restrictions on group size, type of activity, etc. Failing to comply can be considered negligence if something bad happens.
Liability is another major concern. Anyone leading a tour, even in an unofficial capacity, may be subject to some form of liability and can be found accountable if someone suffers any kind of physical or financial injury as a result of the trip.
It's too bad we live in a society where most people are taught to blame others for their own bone-headedness, but anyone who plans to take a lead role in such an endevour will do well to seek some advice from a legal professional before comitting to it.

Guy

Good opints, Guy. And IMHO another argument in favor of hiring locals. Though I'm thinking in terms of international destinations there might well be US locations that are more practical for a group.

A couple of other examples:

__As a result of attending a SoCal NPN group meeting I wound up in a group of 8 people who went to NE Mexico to spend a week on a private ranch photographing birds. The ranch owner was known to one of the group, who made the arrangements with him. The ranch owner made a profit, but provided the group with various blinds that made the week a smashing success. None of this would have been known to the rest of us, though the ranch is trying to establish itself as a birding and ecotour destination. Would it have been acceptable to organize such a group via NSN's message boards?

__The organization through which I have always arranged my South American trips is a broad-based conservation umbrella org that works with various indigenous groups and has done tons of high-end preproduction for various name brand photogs and publications. They can offer similar services to small groups for a price (actually an individual, whatever... for a price). They do this in order to support their conservation activities but they are most definitely a commercial tour planning organization. If I wanted to put together a Peru trip, I would want to work with them. However, I would pay my own way just as would the other participants. Would that make it advertising?

I'm very motivated to pursue this, and would moderate if desired/needed. I love traveling with other serious photogs, and feel it's a way to make otherwise difficult destinations affordable and trips more productive than is sometimes the case. I have a pretty long list already of places I'd like to go to that would work with a forum like this.

Perhaps it could be restricted to members only?

Please keep posting your thoughts.

Lillian

Lillian,

Guy brings up a very valid point regarding liability issues regardless of where you travel and who your "guide" is. As a workshop instructor I am familiar with the substantial costs of liability insurance for such things and I would be very careful when you pursue anything to ensure that you are not held liable for injury, sickness etc., while on a trip that you organized. That is easier said then done and don't discount the unlikely. Stuff happens, and when/if someone falls off a cliff on a trip that you organized their family will likely look to you. While the whole idea sounds like a lot of fun, these are important things that you should not ignore!

Additionally NSN cannot be directly involved, nor can we be sponsor or subsidize such events. This would also preclude us from making it a "members only" thing. This is one of the reasons why my workshop business is completely separate from the business entity of this site; liability. It is also why both are LLC's (Limited Liability Companies); to protect my personal assets.

We have gone to great lengths and expense to shield ourselves from legal problems and this may be something we have to consult with our lawyers about. I have the same concern about the local chapter get-togethers and will probably need to formulate some guidelines for these events as well.

Sorry to sound paranoid, but one can never be too careful in covering yourself from such unexpected events.

Well, I will chime in as well....

I am a member of a large Nikon users community that for the past two years (well, three counting this year's trip) has planned a trip to various places.

These are simply informal gatherings where anyone who wants to can attend. Last year, we were in Moab, Utah, and one of our community moderators "hosted" and "organized" the trip, because he was familiar with the Moab area.

The first year was a trip to the Smoky Mountains..this year's trip is to Riding Ridge National Park outside of Winnipeg. All of these trips are organized by a person who steps up to the plate and offers to plan it all.

As I said, anyone can come. The past two years, we made our own arrangements (hotel/motel) as well as air/car. There was no upfront money needed. This year's trip is different, as they are renting a lodge/hotel for the time that they are at the park.

I am hoping that as this site progresses, the same can happen here. E.J. started what I hope will someday become a yearly large-scale and permanent deal with a two day deal at Bosque del Apace this November, and who knows where in 2004!!!. This appears to be how we started, simply with a number of people getting together to shoot and make new friends.

In fact, my reason for going to Moab was not so much for the photography (I am not super hot on landscape photography) but rather, meet face to face the members I had gotten to "know" via the site.

As the site grows, we all start to get to "know" each other via postings. The yearly trip is a chance for as many as possible to meet each other for real!!! And believe me, the differences between who you "know" here and who you "know" after everyone meets can be very interesting!!!!

Just some thoughts!!!

Cheers,

Mark in Austin