Audubon "BP Oil Spill" Petition

pleverington wrote:

SantaFeJoe wrote:Here's one example from NM:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... d5a78.html

Read the article more closely Joe....The bill is designed to help the little guy who is not in a position to dig a pit for every well. This bill has not passed.

"The commission also said the new rule offers some flexibility but not at the expense of water quality or public safety.
Most of the changes affect parts of the rule regulating waste pit permits, siting, design, construction and closure. The commission says the changes streamline and clarify the pit rule, making it easier for small-scale oil and gas operators to comply."
Paul

Paul, I don't know why you can't seem to read!!!  This articles title is "Regulators repeal, replace pit rule". It has been done!!! When you quote "The commission", you have to realize they are hand-picked. They work for the interests of industry. What they say is pure propaganda to make everything look good. What you wrote in red is more of the same propaganda!!! They will always justify their moves by claiming it will be bad for jobs and the economy. Baloney!!! You simply don't get what's happening!!!

I won't waste anymore time refuting any of the rest of your nonsense. It won't change the truth, even though it is right in front of your eyes. Anybody who wants to know the truth about the Deepwater Horizon disaster can read the report to the president. If they have time on their hands, they can follow my links and learn the truth and not listen to garbage about the rules being relaxed. As I said up this thread a ways, we will have to agree to disagree!!! Nothing is going to change and nothing is to be gained by this! I won't waste anymore space on arguing about things you can't understand or just see differently.

Joe

The commission, appointed by the governor, said it found parts of the previous regulations were cumbersome. The commission also said the new rule offers some flexibility but not at the expense of water quality or public safety.





Most of the changes affect parts of the rule regulating waste pit permits, siting, design, construction and closure. The commission says the changes streamline and clarify the pit rule, making it easier for small-scale oil and gas operators to comply.
 

I wouldn't think that without evidence you or any one else can make an accusation that a selected group of people selected by the governor is necessarily some oil company buy off.  And since they deliberated for a year, apparently there was quite a bit to haggle and talk about.  A company backed panel would have their minds made up in a day it would seem..Doesn't sound to  me that was the case....

I made a typo. The bill that hasn't passed was to  go along  with  the next link down. My bad.

I get what's happening  it's just so short sighted to run around trying to hang the oil companies every time as  I have been repeatedly trying to  get you  to see as well as half of those authors of those links you posted  are also trying to say.

Yeah I read Joe, in fact  I  actually read the links you posted where I know darn well you didn't! And  after  deflecting as you  usually do by answering a question that  was not asked, then you  trivialize and marginalize as a tactic to try to dismiss rebuttal, all after trying to use attrition ......

You think that's really helpful stuff Joe?? You say I don't read yet your discussing matters and you out and out say your not going to read....Cause what? Truth is a problem for you??

You can't see one bit of truth in what I have said??? Now who doesn't read......

Yeah we all make some bad choices Joe...and that's just the whole point. As long as humans are doing things mistakes and bad choices will happen. And that's my point. If you think it can be otherwise your living in a fantasy world. And sure how easy it is and how your capitalizing on that 20/20 hindsight as if you would never ever make any bad choices or mistakes yourself. If you were there that platform would still be running smooth as silk wouldn't it Joe?? These are the things that I can not believe you can't figure out yet myself and many other sources are saying it to you. This is not saying we shouldn't do everything in our power to prevent anything from happening but the truth is more than likely it will again somewhere, sometime, someway. Just imagine if they had never been able to cap that well.....

And you never did come up with even one slacked regulation that caused the deep water accident as you claimed one did.

If you read the stuff I wrote you'll see we don't actually disagree on the problems we only see what needs to be done about it differently. And you'll also see all the sources you linked to agree with my assessment. Nobody was saying hang the oil companies.


Paul

pleverington wrote: And you never did come up with even one slacked regulation that caused the deep water accident as you claimed one did.
Paul

Like I said before Paul, you really should learn to read!!! Here's what I said previously:

Around here, the regulations are not getting stronger, but weaker and relaxed from the past regulations. They are regressing!!! 

I never blamed the incident on slackened regulations, but rather on stupid choices and lack of following proper procedures, and, specifically, not human error. 
The pit rule was but one example regarding this quote from around here. Here is another disturbing example of  business interests interfering with protections regarding the Lesser Prairie Chicken because of oil and ranching:

http://pearce.house.gov/LesserPrairieChicken

These may be blocking actions rather than regressive actions, but the effect is just as bad.  If you knew the back stories, you would see what the connections are. You are entirely naive to think that industry doesn't affect regulations out west. Enough said!

Joe

You seem to always have a problem about being honest in a discussion. For example when you wrap a statement like the one where you claimed that regulations are weaker nowadays with sentences about deep water horizon sandwiched on either side of it of course the inference is that deep water horizon happened in part because of relaxed regulations too. Then you back pedal and try to pass it off as if no one listening? And where's that statement you made "there are no safety provisions at all", seems hard to find all of a sudden. Maybe you could find it for me..

1) This is not an accident, per se, but a wilful ignoring of the warning signs
2)Nothing was thrown into safety, but, rather, safety was totally ignored
3)They had regulations and tests that they blatantly ignored.
4)the blame lies on pure stupidity and love of quick money with no responsibility!
5)the whole incident is an insight to greed and uncaring for humanity.
6)This is pure evil!!! No negligence involved!!!!! It was absolutely wilful!!
7)The oil companies are walking all over the little guy
8)They did not even pay any income taxes because of write-offs related to the spill in 2010!

Joe you made all these statements and all are false. The last two(7&8) are more conclusions based on incomplete information (conjecture), or at best misguided. They are just all plain false ....and ...highly exaggerated.
I think it's time you go back and read the previous material. The accident happened because of  unknowns to the operators on the rig and they drew conclusions based on their best assessments.They got caught in something that happens all the time when many humans are working together on anything. Misunderstandings, miscommunications, assumptions based on previous experience or no experience with a situation at hand. You think BP wouldn't have loved a different outcome on this one??

"amounting to $13.7 billion total. BP pointed to the already $40 billion in spill-related costs they faced."

The numbers are from a link you yourself provided.

They have paid 54 billion and the ticker is still going...And this is a huge financial loss for any government let alone a company. Of course they'll take the write off--what do you think?? Wouldn't you??

Exxon got a lot of grief too for not paying taxes in 2009 by a lot of ninnys...... but look it up--they actually paid the highest taxes ever that year...just not in the US. Their loses were for the possible payoff in drilling in foreign waters, an investment, over two years and those countries sapped exxon of nearly all it's profits for those two years. They are gambling for the pay off. But this is how it is nowadays in the oil industry. The easy oil where one could basically stick a straw in the ground ...well those days are pretty much gone. They have more or less mapped the whole earth for it and know it's disappearing. But anyways Exxon took the business loss write offs like anyone else would and were completely legal and rode through those two years because they had planned for them in advance. They lived on their savings IOW's.. And yet along come the people who only see "hey they didn't pay taxes in 2009!"
Never mind looking at the whole picture, the root causes and truth. And that little story reminds exactly of how your arguing in this discussion. And I'm still here because I feel your statements are wildly misleading and this is important in the long run as people need to really know whats up. Not knee jerk emotionaly fly off the handle and evoke the worn out blame the rich guy again rhetoric..

OK don't listen to me. But go back to those links and read the conclusions at the end and what the authors said about the problem and where we are headed. Even the last paragraph of the "A sea of flames" article and as I have already re-pasted twice, so here it is a third time....




"Unlike a tanker running aground and spilling oil—a simple cause-and-effect accident—this is a chain disaster. Each of the distinct failures of equipment and judgment, combined, was required to cause the event. And if any single component had not failed, or had been handled differently, this blowout never would have happened. And we’re not done yet, because a failure of preparedness to deal with a deepwater blowout will cost many pounds of cure over the coming months."




See Joe...No "evil", no "negligence", no "willful ignoring", no "total lack of regard for safety", nothing "blatantly ignored", not "pure stupidity", no "love of quick money with no responsibility", and "absolutely willful"Joe??? BP and right on down to those men working the platform that night MEANT for this all to happen?? BP wanted to pay out 54 billion and those guys wanted to die?? You got a screw loose..

OK don't listen to me....Go back and reread what the other posters tried to tell you early on here and then ponder why Leormand passed along the link for the "A sea in flames" in the first place. YOU reread the article this time and this time slow down and try to actually see what the author is getting at.
 No s***t Sherlock they F****d up big time!...but what really causes something to happen like that? Blowout preventers have always worked to stop things cold when they started to build up out of control. If they never could trust those preventers, would they ever do any drilling?? Think about it..

We all share your rage, and pain about the environment and those guys who lost their lives and sure 20/20 hindsight is so easy to blame whoever, but if you yourself were on that rig that night do you really mean to tell us that none of that would have happened?? No Joe you would have been faced with the same decisions and you would have to have made them. You or anyone else would probably have missed the cues too.

That's all I'm really been saying...with humans there will always be the possibility of human error. With equipment, no matter how state of the art it is, there will always be equipment failures. In fact some of the state of the art stuff IS the problem ...as we saw for example with the Mark III. There's no guarantee the newest and greatest device that skips down new unforeseen paths is not going to have an unforeseen glitch or worse..With  perfect procedures and regulations there will still always be something missed or unknown or unforeseen that will come back and bite everyone in the arse. Put all three for whatever reasons in the same room and that's disaster.

And then do it in the dark, in the freezing cold, and at crushing depths a mile below the water surface.....


The truth and reality is we all do the very best we can sometimes and even monitor and correct things we find a detriment with utmost vigilance, but after that...we cross our fingers.

The airline industry is a perfect example of this.


And stop evoking those red herrings would you. I can read just fine.



Paul





Did you really mean this or were you foolin???

"Then I will be interested in hearing your thoughts anew!"

And more red herrings....no surprise Joe. Now the debate is "foolish", and for the "unintellectual", and despite whatever the truth is, or the evidence says, you march on as if nothing was presented to your face, then you want the thread locked!! Your a piece of work Joe.. Instead of factual productive debate you just keep on and on with the deflecting and red herrings as if nothing I said or any one else said matters.

I'll take the last word then. We need to see the oil companies comply with and even supersede all procedures now and in the future with Deep water oil drilling. Always they must strive for better planning, up to date equipment and procedures, have in place a pragmatic and realistic means to contain accidents if they happen again-- all ready to go. Even if it means more money at the gas pump. The whole problem is a lot more than any person, person's, or oil company. We are trying to get our oil now in very destructive and risky ways which are going to be a detriment, for sure a detriment, to our environment. There has always been spills. The difference is on land or shallow water, they were more easily accessed and therefore placed under containment before any catastrophe could take place. That is no longer the case in today's world. We will be fracking and deep water drilling now and into the future and we still don't fully know what we are getting ourselves into, and therefore are not going to be able to predict the outcomes as easily as we did in the past.

Running around all frantic blaming everything on the government and corporate America is not only misguided it is childish. We have built a new world out of the primitive one and made a choice that that is what we wanted. Now we must accept the fact that is what we are stuck with. It's us more than any other cause that leads to the destruction of the planet. Our wants and desires, even if not greedy ones, are the engine that drives industry and big business. Without the demand they don't exist. So they just roll on and give us what we want. Then like spoiled brats some us want to blame them for everything when things go wrong? Of course I'm not saying they get off scott free of anything. The point is if you blame them you also have to indict yourselves, all the people, our philosophy of consumerism, our insatiable hunger for more than we had yesterday, our ignorance and indifference to nature and wildlife. I know folks here care a lot, but the truth is most people on this earth don't care about nature and wildlife much, as they not only do not come into contact with it, but also they don't know much at all about it from any thing else. It's fun to kill it and leave tracks everywhere and drain it out for all that it can give.  What they do know most likely comes from a documentary or something, which is better than nothing.......but still. Ask an average man on the street to name five kinds of ducks and they probably won't get past mallards or the ones on the plate. What do we all think is going to happen to everything??

Get going with some solar panels, and electric cars and lawnmowers, weed whackers, maybe a small wind mill...whatever.

Do something.

Hey Joe you live in New Mexico...You got any solar panels on your house yet?? You live in the best location for it you know...How about heating your hot water with solar?? You can do that for as little as a hundred bucks ya know. With solar panels you could charge your electric car.

By the way folks there are shops that specialize in converting some existing gas engine cars to electric at a very reasonable cost compared to off the shelf new electrics.

Sitting around whining about the oil companies is not only pointless it's just plain stupid. Yes they are responsible too, but you know what?...they are just a bunch of people too. It's a big monstrosity that seems out of control at times, but we just have to keep reminding ourselves that we are indeed, without question, and have always been,.... the engine....

Like a roof leak, if your only going to stick a bucket under it, it will never go away. The bucket will have to be replaced with a bigger, and then a bigger bucket, and then you'll have to make repairs to the whole infrastructure of the house to get rid of the rotted wood and insulation and carpenter ants and mold....

Is that how we should handle the oil problem?? Cause that's what's happening.

I'm sure there will be many changes within the BP hierarchy after them having to pay out over 54 billion dollars. I'm also confident the government will demand more stringent regulations and oversight for deep water drilling. I'm also positive neither of those facts will ever be a guarantee this sort of thing will never happen again.

Paul

Folks,

This discussion is way too personal. Please state your positions in the third person rather using "you" statements. Now might be a good time to review Royce's sticky at the top of the forum.

Gary

[edit]

"This will open your eyes," and similar comments are thinly disguised insults. Third person neutral equivalent, "This link is an eye opener."

Gary Briney wrote:Folks,

This discussion is way too personal. Please state your positions in the third person rather using "you" statements. Now might be a good time to review Royce's sticky at the top of the forum.

Gary

[edit]

"This will open your eyes," and similar comments are thinly disguised insults. Third person neutral equivalent, "This link is an eye opener."

Your right Gary and thanks for the check...[edited: remainder of post off topic - gb]

Paul