Sony DSC RX100 (E.J. & Ricardo)

This is mainly a question for E.J. and Ricardo but would welcome replies from others too.  I read with interest Cynthia Crawford's earlier post looking for a good pocket camera.  E.J. recommended the Sony DSC RX100 because of the sensor size and it was within Cynthia's cost parameters.  The RX100 looks very nice to me for use while backpacking/hiking.  My questions:

If I were expand the cost parameter to, say, $600 - is there a better choice of camera you would recommend?

How good/bad is the noise level of the Sony RX100 series (up to 2000 ISO)?  Is it a decent camera for lower light shots?

E.J. mentioned it has a 1" sensor.  How does that compare with a full size DSLR (like my Nikon D810)?

Does anyone know if there is an underwater housing for this camera?  If so, I will probably ditch my GoPro Hero 4 Black.

Many thanks for your replies.  Have a great day!

Bill

Bill Chambers wrote:This is mainly a question for E.J. and Ricardo but would welcome replies from others too.  I read with interest Cynthia Crawford's earlier post looking for a good pocket camera.  E.J. recommended the Sony DSC RX100 because of the sensor size and it was within Cynthia's cost parameters.  The RX100 looks very nice to me for use while backpacking/hiking.  My questions:

If I were expand the cost parameter to, say, $600 - is there a better choice of camera you would recommend?

How good/bad is the noise level of the Sony RX100 series (up to 2000 ISO)?  Is it a decent camera for lower light shots?

E.J. mentioned it has a 1" sensor.  How does that compare with a full size DSLR (like my Nikon D810)?

Does anyone know if there is an underwater housing for this camera?  If so, I will probably ditch my GoPro Hero 4 Black.

Many thanks for your replies.  Have a great day!

Bill

Q: If I were expand the cost parameter to, say, $600 - is there a better choice of camera you would recommend?  
EJP:  I would go with the highest level of RX100 that fits within the $600 - that will probably be an RX100 2 or RX 100 3.  Another option, but it isn't shirt pocketable but still small is a Sony a6000 which has a much larger 24mp APS-C sensor but only the kit lens fits in the $600 parameters and it's not very good.  I personally use a later version of this camera, the a6300 with the Sony Zeiss 16-70mm f/4 lens for the exact use that you mentioned.

Q: How good/bad is the noise level of the Sony RX100 series (up to 2000 ISO)?  Is it a decent camera for lower light shots?
EJP: To me the camera is not usable that high and I wouldn't use it beyond 800.  There is simply no pocketable camera that will give you good ISO 2000 - the pixels are just too small to have a S/N ratio that gives you cleanish files that high.  You need to go to a bigger sensor.  I personally don't think even m43 is good enough for ISO 2000 and you need at least an APS-C sensor, preferably one made by Sony or Toshiba.  This may not be as big of a deal as it seems though - see the next question for a further discussion.  By early next week I will have an article in my Winter newsletter that helps people decide what sensor size is right for them.

Q:  How does a 1" sensor compare with a full size DSLR (like my Nikon D810)?
EJP:  The D810 uses a 36mp Sony sensor that is 36x24.  Virtually all 1" sensor cameras regardless of manufacturer (even Canon) uses a Sony sensor whose crop factor is 2.7 compared to the full frame sensor.  That means for a given ISO and for equivalent pixel counts, you get 3 stops better noise performance on a D810 than a camera with 1 1" sensor.  the latest iterations of the RX100 use a back-side illuminated sensor (BSI) which gains you back maybe 1/2 stop of that.  Do realize however that means for an image that is framed the same, you can use a 3 stop faster aperture to get the same depth of field.  So if you routinely shoot at ISO 1600 and f/8 on the D810 you could shoot at ISO 100 and f/2.8 to get the same DOF.  This is because the actual lens to get the 24-70 or so focal length range is actually more like 8 to 25mm on the small camera.

Q: Does anyone know if there is an underwater housing for this camera?
EJP:  Yes, Sony actually makes a dedicated UW housing for the RX100.  There are also third party ones.

Hope that helps.

For more on sensor size differences see the article in my Fall Newsletter and as stated above, this will be expanded in the forthcoming winter newsletter:
http://www.ejphoto.com/Quack%20PDF/Quac ... 202016.pdf
The sensor size discussion starts on Page 10.

Great, Thanks so much E.J. for your super informative answer. You da man!!!

Snowed in here...I think EJ meant 810 has 36 mpix sensor. The other difference between RX100 I &2 have a longer zoom (which slows down at tele length) and III & IV &V have a 24/70 equivalent.lens

Thanks Mike. I'm looking at the Sony a6000 E.J. mentioned in his answer.  I may decide to expand my cost parameter, get a better lens and go that route.  Still studying.

Mike in O wrote:Snowed in here...I think EJ meant 810 has 36 mpix sensor.  The other difference between RX100 I &2 have a longer zoom (which slows down at tele length) and III & IV &V have a 24/70 equivalent.lens

Yeah, typo - fixed!

Bill
I dive with an RX100 (original model) in an ikelite housing. I am actively looking for a replacement for the following reasons:

low light focusing is hit and miss
recharging the flash is slow after 20 shots or so--enough so you drift 100 feet down the reef in Coz before you can shoot again
the macro focus mode limits you to the very wide end of the focal range--you do not get tight enough for small critters

The flip side of the issue, when you are in the sweet spot of the lens, it just sings.

For underwater use an Olympus TG-4 and housing looks intriguing

The Nikon DL series may help with the macro limitations-Ikelite hopes to know in January if it will make a housing

I saw the Sony housing for the RX100--the grey plastic and no diffuser left me worried about using an external flash. The Ikelite housing works well with external flashes. I will send you a link to an album of underwater shots using the Sony/ikelite combination from a couple of weeks ago.

Do note the RX100 Mk V uses on sensor phase detect AF and will perform dramatically better in that regard to the previous models.

Bill Chambers wrote:Thanks Mike. I'm looking at the Sony a6000 E.J. mentioned in his answer.  I may decide to expand my cost parameter, get a better lens and go that route.  Still studying.

Hi Bill,
  Not sure what lens you were thinking of to put on this Sony, but don't think the combo would be a "pocket camera"?   Looked back at the photos both my daughter and I took with our Sony RX100s and we never went above ISO800 (she uses a strobe light for underwater shots).  Lots of choices out there and have gone through this exercise myself many times (and still do) and always convince myself that once one gets to the APC size sensor cameras (ie. the Sony a6000), it seems like one might as well get a DSLR?  There are some small and cheap Canon and Nikon DSLRs where you would have lots more lenses to choose from (and presumably already have some)?  Also the battery would last a lot longer in a DSLR?  On my last trip one person had the full frame Sony mirrorless (think the Sony alpha a7R, $$$) as well as a Canon full frame and didn't understand why confuse things with the two systems?
Just some random thoughts on a rainy California day.
regards,
Ricardo Photographed with the Sony RX100 mIII as the sun was almost down (ISO 800, f/2.8, 70mm)

Maybe wait for these... They are finally coming out in Q1
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-produc ... meras.page

E.J. Peiker wrote:Maybe wait for these...  They are finally coming out in Q1
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-produc ... meras.page

  Hi EJ:  Wouldn't the 1 inch sensor of the Nikon DL series still limit its low light sensitivity to about the same as the Sony RX100 m5?  At least it is much cheaper!  And there is a range of lenses.  Hopefully the battery will last longer than the Sony battery.
ricardo

Yeah it is the same and latest BSI sensor but Nikon has always gotten just a bit better performance out of the Sony sensor than Sony has. Again, since the actual lenses are much lower in focal length, the DOF for an equivalently framed shot to a full frame camera is 3 stops greater so shooting these things at f/2.8 is equivalent to shooting a full framer at f/8 so this is not that big of a deal since you can shoot a lower ISO and compensate with a larger aperture. For example the 18-50 lens on one of the DL compacts is actually a 6.7-18.5mm lens that gives you an 18-50 full frame equivalent framing due to the crop factor.

The Sony RX100 is quite popular underwater and a number of housings are available. UW use places unique demands, a very wide lens is useful to get as close as possible and it needs to focus close, Good macro performance is also important.

the underwater photo online shops have good reviews of cameras and housings and are worth looking through to see the pros and cons of various models you may look at. Like this one: http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/digit ... as#COMPACT

also see:

http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/sony-rx100-iv-review
http://www.backscatter.com/learn/articl ... php?ID=230
https://www.opticaloceansales.com/panas ... small.html
http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/canon ... -ii-review

The other thing to note is that just because say a MkIIII version is good UW, it does not follow that the MkIV is as good, it generally will have different trade offs

If you are looking for a housing look at Nauticam, the vacuum leak detect system is available on a number of compact housings and gives good peace of mind, plus pre loading the o-rings by pulling a vacuum helps resist leaks which are most likely at the surface when the o-ring is not loaded by water pressure. Also recommend buying your housing from a specialist who can provide advice.

I would advise you against buying the Sony. I purchased a Sony RX100 MKIV (it was $1000) but it died after a week, it would make a grinding noise and power off. I sent it back and got a replacement but it had a de-centered lens (right side of the fame was softer than the left side), I returned that one too and got a third one. The pop-up EVF became loose after two weeks of use (it would flex and wobble) so I sent it back for a refund and gave up. Maybe I was unlucky but I can't see it lasting in the field long, plus the interface was terrible and AF was a joke. It's a toy and def not worth that high asking price. If it worked I could see myself paying 300-400 bucks for it but not more. 


good luck

ahazeghi wrote:I would advise you against buying the Sony. I purchased a Sony RX100 MKIV (it was $1000) but it died after a week, it would make a grinding noise and power off. I sent it back and got a replacement but it had a de-centered lens (right side of the fame was softer than the left side), I returned that one too and got a third one. The pop-up EVF became loose after two weeks of use (it would flex and wobble) so I sent it back for a refund and gave up. Maybe I was unlucky but I can't see it lasting in the field long, plus the interface was terrible and AF was a joke. It's a toy and def not worth that high asking price. If it worked I could see myself paying 300-400 bucks for it but not more. 


good luck

Your reply reminds of Ming Thein's feeling about Sony. Here's what he said in his review of the A7RII:

...It just feels like a consumer electronic device in operation, something designed for anoraks by anoraks, not a camera....

I sold it. It’s frustratingly slow, unresponsive, and the files aren’t that great even after the firmware update. I’ve had strange errors and my friends with the camera have experienced lockups, file corruption and dead cards. It is not a camera, it’s an electronic gadget. After six months and eight thousand frames with it, I disliked it more and more.

Here's the review:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2015/08/25/t ... more-11625

Then there's those of us that have used them for years (RX100 and a7 series cameras) without a single problem...

Here is a just published round up of all of the premium compacts. They like the Panasonic DMC-LX10 the best...

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2016-r ... om-cameras

E.J. Peiker wrote:Here is a just published round up of all of the premium compacts.  They like the Panasonic DMC-LX10 the best...

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2016-r ... om-cameras

EJ:   Wouldn't it depend on what features are most valuable to the individual?  For example, having the bigger zoom on the Panasonic would be nice but it comes at a cost, the max aperture is 2.8 versus the 1.8 of the Sony.  Since I most want to use it in low light and close distances (people, inside, etc) not sure the Panasonic would be best for me.  I have wondered why some website doesn't assign points to the different features of a camera and then allow individuals to rank the features they most value and then get the "best" camera for that individual?  Or maybe there is such a website now?

Ari:  Sorry to hear about your problems (at least Sony gave you a refund).  I bought the initial RX100 in July, 2012 and used it on trips and family events.  I didn't baby it at all, sticking it in my pockets, dropped it, etc (it was usually my 3rd or 4th camera).  On a trip to the Pantanal it actually bounced out of the vehicle, landed in the dirt road and baked in the 105 degree plus sun for 2 days until I was able to retrieve it and it was fine!  I gave it to my daughter a couple years ago and she has taken in on at least 4 live aboard dive trips where it was her primary camera for underwater photography and it is still working fine (not sure how well it would be treated during these trips).  I did buy the RX100 m3 in 2014 and thought the pop up EVF would be "delicate" but so far it hasn't broken (though have to admit I don't use it that much).  But they are definitely not a replacement for a DSLR.

Yes, totally agree with you - just thought it was decent roundup of the contenders
My RX100 is still going strong too, my GF has been using it a lot for the last couple of years and she sure as heck is not gentle on the gear

For fun, I looked at Consumer Reports for reliability. Unfortunately they lump together all the point and shoots of the different brands, but under this criteria Panasonic and Sony were identical. The Sony RX100 mIV did score higher (77) versus the Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS100 (72) on overall points though it is several hundred dollars more.