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by DonS on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:20 pm
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First, I have a request. I ask that those of you who use equipment, other than Canon, not post any comments or rants against Canon on this topic. Also, the purpose of this topic is NOT for you to post your opinions of what you believe this camera can or cannot do. Please, respect this request. Thank you.

I am interested in this new camera and its capabilities. While I have not been able to "touch" one yet, I have compiled a list of questions that I want to get answered in order to make a buying decision. I encourage others, who have a similar interest, to post their questions on this topic. Then, when we (or some respected reviewers) can actually test the camera, we can get "real" answers to our questions. We will then have good information to use to decide if this camera will meet our needs.

For myself, I plan for this camera to be used primarily for wildlife, especially birds. Secondarily, used as a backup for landscapes and macro. Your needs may be different.

Here are my initial questions:

1. What is the highest ISO that I can use and obtain images (right out of the camera) that I see to be noise-free?

2. What impact will this new AF system have on AF speed with extenders? For example, I believe that most of us would agree that using a 1.4x extender II on a fast "L" lens will decrease the AF speed by around 50%. And using a 2x extender II on the same lens will decrease AF speed by up to 75%. I realize that this may difficult and very subjective to determine.

3. Is the new AF system better at tracking small, fast moving subjects (like birds) than a 50D? Better or equal to a 1D Mark III (one that the AF system is working optimally)?

Please add your questions to the list. When someone (or a reviewer) has the opportunity to test the camera to answer these questions, please post that info to this topic.

Thanks.
"Take your passion and make it happen!"
Don Saunders
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by dbostedo on Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:12 pm
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Don - Just one comment - the first question is almost totally opinion based. There are no noise free images, and what level is acceptable to people seems to vary dramatically as the ISO increases. A better question might be to relate the noise levels/type to some other camera in terms of improvement or similarity.
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by bobbyz on Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:25 pm
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I am also interested in this camera. Number one thing for me is how well the new AF system is. So I would like to ask the following question:

1. How is the AF system compared to old 1dmk2? I mean when using AI servo mode with nice glass like 300/400 f2.8 or the 500/600mm f4.


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by signgrap on Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:34 pm
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My question relates to the Wireless Flash control that is built into the 7D.
Is the wireless infra-red line of sight or radio?
My assumption is infra-red but my hope is radio.
Dick Ludwig
 

by Karl Egressy on Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:06 pm
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My question is somewhat 7D related.
Is it the much anticipated 60D under the name of 7D, or there is going to be a 60D coming out soon.
I know it is hard to know, but some people might know it.
 

by Alexandre Vaz on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:01 am
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Karl Egressy wrote:
My question is somewhat 7D related.
Is it the much anticipated 60D under the name of 7D, or there is going to be a 60D coming out soon.
I know it is hard to know, but some people might know it.


That's an interesting one. I don't have the answer, but on one hand I would find very surprising if Canon drop the X0D line all together, but I can't see much room between the 50D and the 7D to fit another camera (60D) unless Canon makes a similar option like with the G11, and releases a newer camera with smaller resolution, but improved features and noise...

Also I suspect Canon must be working hard in the upcoming 1D (to jump ahead of the competition), and it will be interesting to see what do they come up with. But I suspect we we have to wait until spring 2010. Unfortunately I can not address any of the questions about the 7D, and my advice would be to wait a little longer before several independent review start showing on the web.
 

by DonS on Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:01 am
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dbostedo wrote:
the first question is almost totally opinion based.


I agree. That's why I mentioned "images that I see to be noise free". Certainly you can compare images with another camera. Or, you can just shoot a scene, with highlight and details in the shadows, at every ISO speed that the camera offers. Then view the images, magnified, on a high-res monitor and see at which ISO do you begin to see noise.
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by bobbyz on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:31 am
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signgrap wrote:
My question relates to the Wireless Flash control that is built into the 7D.
Is the wireless infra-red line of sight or radio?
My assumption is infra-red but my hope is radio.


It can't be radio as canon flashes don't have built in radio.
 

by dbostedo on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:23 am
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DonS wrote:
dbostedo wrote:
the first question is almost totally opinion based.


I agree. That's why I mentioned "images that I see to be noise free". Certainly you can compare images with another camera. Or, you can just shoot a scene, with highlight and details in the shadows, at every ISO speed that the camera offers. Then view the images, magnified, on a high-res monitor and see at which ISO do you begin to see noise.

Hey Don - I don't mean to belabour this (well, not much) but my point is that magnified images on a high-res monitor show noise at every ISO. The question is how much noise is acceptable to you. Not whether or not noise is present. I was thinking that a comparison to other cameras would help, as it would let people make up their own minds without every person having to do an ISO analysis. I guess it's nit-picky, but I think most people would just want to see at what ISO noise becomes objectionable. Which, now that I think about it, is probably what you're getting at... :D
David Bostedo
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by Dave Courtenay on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:31 am
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Canon i believe state that a 1.4x slows AF by 25% and the 2x by 75% and i have been told by a Canon employee that the XXD range will continue, The 7D is to run alongside the 5D inbetween the xxd and 1 series

Dave
 

by Wil Hershberger on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:39 am
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Hi Don,
For what it's worth there are some example images here:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos7d/page14.asp

Very interesting set of questions and yes, I would be most interested in what the new AF system feels like.
 

by DonS on Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:40 pm
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Hi Wil,

I examined the images on DPreview. A nice look at London. :D I really wish that the images were RAW. Granted, I would have had to convert them to DNGs, since RAW converters would not have compatibility with the 7D yet. And I would have liked to see more images at ISOs of 800, 1200, and 1600. Still, those images looked quite good.

Here are some videos on Canon's Digital Learning Center web site with some good info:

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller ... cleID=3066

The AF system sounds promising.
"Take your passion and make it happen!"
Don Saunders
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by akclimber on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:15 pm
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I really want to like this camera. I'll be looking for answers to these questions (among others, but these are the two threshold questions for me):

1) Will image quality (noise, color accuracy/separation, detail) allow me to feel comfortable printing at 16x24 from 800 ISO (or less) files?
2) Will AF work reasonable well enough to use as my main whale, bear, eagle and other critter camera?

So far, I'm not impressed with the samples found on-line but I recognize that all the sample are from pre-production cameras and the RAW files converted with ACR (which isn't my preferred RAW converter for Canon files and which doesn't yet "officially" support 7D RAW files so it hasn't yet been given its final 7D RAW file conversion tweaking).

We'll see... If the 7D doens't work out for me (and even if it does), hopefully the long awaited 3D and/or 1D4 will be announced in Feb.

Cheers!
Joe McCabe
Juneau, Alaska
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by OntPhoto on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:19 pm
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DonS wrote:
2. What impact will this new AF system have on AF speed with extenders? For example, I believe that most of us would agree that using a 1.4x extender II on a fast "L" lens will decrease the AF speed by around 50%. And using a 2x extender II on the same lens will decrease AF speed by up to 75%. I realize that this may difficult and very subjective to determine.

3. Is the new AF system better at tracking small, fast moving subjects (like birds) than a 50D? Better or equal to a 1D Mark III (one that the AF system is working optimally)?

Thanks.


These are questions many of us are waiting the answers to. Like many others, hope to get my hands on a 7D in a couple of weeks. However, I can venture a guess on questions 2 and 3. First, the 7D cannot AF at f8 like the 1D series. I don't expect improvements in this area over say the 1D MKIII.

As for the 7D being better at tracking small birds compared to the 50D....well, one would think that more AF points (that are closely spaced and can expand like on the new 7D) would do a better job at tracking smaller moving objects than the widely spaced 9 AF points on the 50D. And, the 7D has a seperate chip that handles the AF function whereas the 50D has to make do, all functions on just one chip.

I'm eagerly awaiting Rob Galbraith's more thorough testing with a production 7D. However, in previous models, have beta Canon cameras differed significantly in the area of AF performance from a production camera? However, with a production 7D he'll at least have more time to do some indepth testing of the AF system.


Last edited by OntPhoto on Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.
 

by OntPhoto on Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:55 pm
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Karl Egressy wrote:
My question is somewhat 7D related.
Is it the much anticipated 60D under the name of 7D, or there is going to be a 60D coming out soon.
I know it is hard to know, but some people might know it.


Chuck Westfall seemingly answers this in the DigitalJournalist:

"CW: In the film era, the basic idea for EOS model numbers was clear enough: the lower the number, the higher the ranking. The EOS-1 series ranked higher than the EOS 3, which in turn ranked higher than the EOS 5 (or A2E in North America), which in turn ranked higher than the EOS 7 series, etc.

In the digital era, after some initial models were named for their sensor resolution (as in D30 for 3 megapixel and D60 for 6 megapixel), Canon changed the model numbering scheme for consumer-grade digital SLRs to a chronological base, as seen in the xxD series, the xxxD series and the xxxxD series, with an initial model in each. For example, 10D through 50D are chronological, 300D through 500D are chronological, and 1000D is most likely the first of a series of entry-level models slotted a bit lower than the xxxD series.

But above the xxD series, EOS model numbers appear to honor the original film-based sequence where lower numbers signify higher rank. In this context, the 1D series ranks higher than the 5D series for obvious reasons, while the 5D series ranks above the 7D because of its use of full-frame sensors. It remains to be seen whether this numbering scheme (or feature differentiations) will continue in future models, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

Why wasn’t the new camera named 60D? Because the 7D is considered to be the start of a new series in the EOS line-up. It ranks higher than xxD models like the 50D, just as the 50D ranks higher than the 500D even though both have APS-C sensors with the same resolution. " - Chuck Westfall.
 

by Scott Linstead on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:32 pm
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Exciting times for Canon guys! I agree that there is a distinct correlation between AF sensor density (space between sensors) and tracking ability. This is the most obvious change from the D200 to the D300 and the tracking ability from one camera to the other is striking.
 

by OntPhoto on Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:11 pm
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Scott Linstead wrote:
Exciting times for Canon guys!

It's about time too! :)
 

by Scott Fairbairn on Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:22 am
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Does the AF deliver? That is my question, and the re-reading the comments on Rob Galbraith's brief experience with it make me wonder. When Canon brings out a camera, there is always a lot of comments about the samples being from a "pre-production" camera, so we shouldn't judge too harshly. That kind of thinking seems unsettling to me, it seems we are always looking at a less than mature product that we "hope" will be different by release(but won't know until we spend the money). It is similar to the mark3 story.
I keep thinking about Nikon's strategy with the D3, they let many photographers have one to try out and post images. They were that confident of the product, and rightly so.
 

by Michael Eckstein on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:06 am
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Scott Fairbairn wrote:
Does the AF deliver? That is my question, and the re-reading the comments on Rob Galbraith's brief experience with it make me wonder. When Canon brings out a camera, there is always a lot of comments about the samples being from a "pre-production" camera, so we shouldn't judge too harshly. That kind of thinking seems unsettling to me, it seems we are always looking at a less than mature product that we "hope" will be different by release(but won't know until we spend the money). It is similar to the mark3 story.
I keep thinking about Nikon's strategy with the D3, they let many photographers have one to try out and post images. They were that confident of the product, and rightly so.


A number of posters on other sites have pointed out that Rob Gailbraith used an AF mode for A1 servo that the 7D user manual says is not for use with A1 servo. Others have tested the AF and have said they feel it is close to or the same as, or better than the 1DMK III. Another tester shooting in Times Square at diving pigeons said it locked on instantly every time. So I guess we will have to wait for the delivery of the production models. In any case I would have to assume that the AF will be better than the 50D, which in my opinion, is pretty darn good for action shooting.

Here's a link to Canon's explanation of the totally new AF system in the 7D:http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3049&productID=329&articleTypeID=5
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by akclimber on Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:59 am
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Michael Eckstein wrote:
Here's a link to Canon's explanation of the totally new AF system in the 7D:http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3049&productID=329&articleTypeID=5


Interesting. Thanks for the link.
Joe McCabe
Juneau, Alaska
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