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by josiah@dwsanctum.org on Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:45 pm
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Right now I am using this setup Canon 7d, 70-200mm 2.8L USM with 2x iiii extender, and most of my photos (even without the extender) seem to be grainy.  I shoot between 188-250 ISO but cannot get a nice clear image.  I am wondering if it is because the Canon 7d has the built in 1.6x focal length.  I am also very new to photography and may be doing something wrong with my settings.  The settings I was shooting the robin (link below) with today was 1/1000 SS, f2.8, and 160 ISO

Image Location:
http://rmfalconry.com/Picture/

I cannot seem to get any of my photos as sharp as ones I have seen on this website. I would like to know if it is my setup or settings/skill that needs the most improvement. For I know I am far from a professional right now. 

Thanks everyone,

Josiah
 

by Trev on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:41 pm
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First - I think you mean mark iii extender.

Secondly - thats a large crop as well as increasing the exposure in the blue sky where noise often lurks. Getting the exposure right in camera would help, you could also apply noise reduction to the sky in PS. Try shooting so you do not have to crop so much.
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by signgrap on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:51 pm
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I have a 7D and use full stop ISO's either 100, 200 or 400. The 1/3 intermediate ISO's on Canon are software implemented and tend to be slightly more noisy/ grainy than full stop ISO's. Another cause for graininess is underexposure. ETTR as much as you can without blowing any whites (without any blinkies). Without knowing more about how you expose and process the images it is hard to say what is causing the problem. At ISO 100 and 200 I get clean noise free (grain free) images. At ISO 400 you start to see some noise that is easily controlled by noise reduction software, I use Lightroom 4 which does a good job. Above ISO 400 controlling noise becomes more difficult.
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by dbolt on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:39 pm
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I thought I read somewhere that 160 was the native ISO for a 7D, and several other Canon DSLRs. Clarification?
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by signgrap on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:04 pm
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dbolt wrote:I thought I read somewhere that 160 was the native ISO for a 7D, and several other Canon DSLRs.  Clarification?
Yes that rumor has been around for a long time, about as long as the 7D has been around, but from what I understand it is just that ,a rumor and not a fact. I believe there is at least one thread here on NSN that dealt with the 160 ISO but by the end of the thread it was shown to be incorrect and full stop ISO's were the way to get best image quality.
Dick Ludwig
 

by vbpholaw on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:30 pm
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One should also note that shooting with a 2x converter on a zoom lens, even a high quality one such as the 70-200/2.8, and shooting wide open, is not going to result in the best optical quality (assuming it's not the v.II 70-200, that makes shooting with the converter even more problematical). Add to that significant cropping and you are not going to get really sharp results, at any ISO.
 

by Royce Howland on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:15 am
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Josiah, from your brief description it sounds to me like you're probably grappling with two different things, each of which is a bit complex in its own right as to what is going on and what to do to improve it.
most of my photos (even without the extender) seem to be grainy.
The extender won't have anything really to do with images that are grainy. Not directly, anyway. When you say "grainy" I presume you mean noise, and that's a property of the camera sensor, your exposure settings, and your processing. It's not a property of the lens / extender optics.

The 7D is a camera that suffers from a good deal of noise. Search the internet for "Canon 7D noise", or even just older discussions on this forum, and you'll find thousands of discussions on this topic. You probably need to improve several things to get the best results from this camera, in terms of clean images with minimal noise. A few tips:
  • Shoot in the best light you can.
  • Use the lowest ISO you can. This includes not using intermediate ISO settings like 160. Stick with even ISO's like 100, 200, 400. There are long drawn out technical reasons for this with the non-pro Canon bodies, but the net result is that intermediate ISO values produce a worse combination of noise & dynamic range, and they're best avoided.
  • Nail your exposure right on. In your Robin example, it looks to me like the original shot is under-exposed by perhaps as much as 1 full stop. The 7D will punish under-exposed shots with a lot of noise.
  • Develop a good workflow with noise reduction tools.
  • Also, improve your sharpening workflow -- in particular don't sharpen things that shouldn't be sharpened, like clear blue sky or blurred elements outside the depth of field, because mainly you'll be sharpening the noise and not any real detail.
I cannot seem to get any of my photos as sharp as ones I have seen on this website.
Photos that aren't sharp is a completely different topic from noise & grain. Unsharp images can result from a host of factors, and there's an equivalently large number of things that can be done to improve.
  • As noted, the 2X teleconverter on any lens will reduce the sharpness of all images. Some models of teleconverter are better than others, some lenses are better than others, but the 2X on any lens will be worse than that same lens by itself, or with the 1.4X teleconverter. Get closer to your subject and/or use the lens bare or with the 1.4X and results will be sharper, pixel for pixel.
  • Shooting any lens with a wide open aperture generally will not produce the sharpest results possible on that lens. Typically stopping down 1 - 2 stops on the lens will improve sharpness a good deal; most lenses hit their sweet spot for balancing highest resolution vs. lowest diffraction softness somewhere in the f/8 - f/11 range. This varies from lens to lens, but it's an optical fact of life in most cases. Do some tests on static subjects with your lens at various apertures (with & without teleconverter) to learn where your gear's sweet spots are.
  • If you're using autofocus on the 7D, it's possible -- I'd say actually probable -- that AF inaccuracy is hurting you unless you've specifically calibrated your camera + lens. Again there are thousands of discussions out there regarding AF accuracy of modern DSLR cameras in general, most recent generation Canon bodies in particular, and the 7D in specific. To test whether your AF accuracy is acceptable or not, set up your equipment with a static subject and focus on it using AF. Then kick the camera into Live View mode, zoom up to 10X magnification, and look at areas on the test subject that you expect should be razor sharp. Manually adjust the lens focus knob and see if you can improve focus. If you can, then either your camera needs to be micro-adjusted for the lens (which you can do, see threads here), or calibrated by Canon at a service center, or the AF accuracy simply isn't great. If the latter, that's a whole other story on its own; there are many debates on the reliability of AF on the 7D.
  • Obviously there are exposure factors related to shutter speed that affect image sharpness. If shutter speed is too slow, then either camera motion and/or subject motion can blur the image. That doesn't appear to be a likely factor in your Robin test image since 1/1000s should have been enough for a sharp result. Having said that, once the combination of shutter speed and focal length reaches a crucial area, then long-lens technique becomes a factor. Good tripod support, stable shooting stance to minimize camera motion & damp any vibrations, etc. can be important in getting the sharpest results possible when you're up in the territory of 400mm and beyond. The longer the focal length, the more that tiny vibrations or camera motion can spoil critical sharpness of the result, especially when pixel-peeping the image at 100% with a camera like the 7D that has a high pixel density on its sensor.
  • With longer focal lengths as well, you have to consider dust, heat haze, water vapor, and any other atmospheric conditions that may be between you & the subject. Often people do everything else right and still can't figure out why tack sharp images don't come out. It can be because of shooting a subject at a greater distance, through a proportionally greater mass of crud or distortion in the air. So again get closer if possible.
  • All of that above can be done right and still need another nudge of help through effective sharpening workflow. That's also a big topic in its own right, there are many past threads on it plus some articles in the NSN articles archive.
Just a few thoughts, I'm sure others will chime in as well...
I would like to know if it is my setup or settings/skill that needs the most improvement.
As a general rule, always improve skills & technique first, equipment second. Better skill will help you no matter what gear you've got now, or get in the future. :) Working on skills will also provide valuable info on what equipment in your setup may need to be improved, and what you can continue to live with and still get the results you want.
Royce Howland
 

by josiah@dwsanctum.org on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:32 am
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Royce, thank you for the reply. It was indeed the most helpful information that I have read. I am new to this website, but for everything that I have seen the community is top notch!
 

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