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by Bill Lockhart on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:51 pm
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Here we have a fabulous website with a great way of viewing images. Yet the comments are sparse.

Why so few comments?

Comments can help all of us improve. Me especially. I want to learn.

Please my friends, comment, tell me how to do it better. This is why we are here.

Feel free to be absolutely honest. How else will I learn?

In the spirit of the site,

Bill

by steve mackay on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:46 pm
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I completely agree Bill........the way I try to do it is to post an image and give 10 comments back to others (if we all did this then the forum would be a lot busier!).........but I am a bit of a hypocrite as I don't always manage 10 replies.........but this may be the point?, I think some people are extremely selfish with their posts, they must ultimately want replies (otherwise they wouldn't post them) to their images but are not remotely prepared to comment on others........on the flip side some sections are very busy (birds for example) so it's probably impossible to comment on everyone's images (unless we are glued to that screen for an unhealthy amount of time lol)..........and then we get into the "clique/club" thing......where you only have time to comment on your peer "friends" posts but inadvertently exclude others (and these people may ultimately feel unwelcome?.....after a short time at least)

........I think the biggest problem is time, there are clearly a lot of busy people on this cool forum (me too, I'm a hypocrite and have times where i'm very busy posting and commenting and then just disappear for months)........but if they post an image and expect replies they should at least do it (almost) 10 times themselves........surely, this should be how it happens???

To be really honest I think that some of the huge amount of moderators on this great forum........don't really get involved at all! (and some quite literally 'post and run'......which is worse than not getting involved!).........this is not remotely a slight on the great moderators on this forum (and there are many!, they know who you are!!!, so I won't mention names.......and they are one of the reasons I will always come back!, they are in all sections by the way!).........but it can sometimes create a confusing scenario?.............don't get me wrong, I am fully aware that many of the people and moderators on this forum are making their bread and butter from being in remote places and cannot be involved in day to day participation (and to expect this is completely unreasonable!).........but sometimes it feels like a ghost ship.

I am a very big fan of NSN's new "like" button.......i'm sure many detest it and don't see the point?...but I most definitely see the point in a big way!.......to me it's a way for very busy people to give the thumbs up (and participation) without getting bogged down in the politics with the problem of " if you comment on one, you have to comment on all! syndrome" .......which certainly isn't a cure for the "post and run, comment on me, but I won't comment on you" brigade.....but I like the "like" button, I agree with it!.....let's use it more!!! :-).....whenever I've been on one of "my months off" I've always checked in for photographic inspiration....but been to knackered to post on just one image (because I feel I will insult others if I don't comment on their posts....the "clique" thing kicking in!)

I genuinely think the inactive mods need to lead by example, otherwise what is the point of them?, what do you reckon Bill???

P.S i'm waiting for your latest comments on my latest images..... ;-)

by Leo Keeler on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:18 am
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I agree with everything Steve has said - especially concerning "TIME".

I admit to falling into what I'll call the "say only good things group" way to often. The "like it" button is a quick way to give positive feedback, but not "constructive" feed back.

A while back I tried to give constructive feed back, following the advise I'd gotten from publishers and stock agency personnel. But then noticed I was about the only one making such suggestions. It is still rare to see folks suggest changes in cropping, etc.

I contribute a lot of this to a series of topics about a year ago debating the "100% as shot" topic. A lot of folks seemed to down play cropping, removing distracting twigs, spot color correction, etc. I found the posting by Christina Mittermier to be about the best of all comments in that era. She emphasized "truth in labeling and disclosure" and listing the corrections made in the Metadata of the image. Great idea if you go beyond moving the white and black point sliders to the edge of the histogram - which I feel is not changing the image, but correcting the camera's action.

After tonight (because it's already late for me) I will attempt to post at least two-three positive (including why/what is positive) and/or constructive comments each time I visit Sorry Steve 10 is to many for me personally.
http://www.akwildlife.com
Fellow Member International League of Conservation Photographers, North American Nature Photographers, Past President of Friends of McNeil River

by STEVENMAJOR on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:46 am
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Two possibilities.
1. I recently sent Mr. Downing a note concerning this: The Latest Forum Discussions column (front page left) has been "trashed up" with the inclusion of advertising posts (they are not discussions and don't belong there). It makes it possible to click on what you think is a topic that someone needs help with and discover it's just someone (else) who wants to sell you something. It is off putting and reeks of the commercialism that is, in general, a much larger part of this sites recent redesign.
2. USA is going through some very serious changes. Maybe people who offer helpful advise to others have turned their attention and written words to subjects that are, for most people, far more important. Photography is not a requirement in anyone's life, it is chosen form of entertainment that very few derive any income from. Because it's entertainment, and our economy is crap, fewer people are participating in it, and thus, the forums.

by Greg Downing on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:01 am
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I will comment about this topic a bit later when I have more time but wanted to let Steve know (above) that with respect to #1 (which has virtually nothing to do with the initial question at hand with respect to comments) we will change the topics shown on the front page to only discussion topics - that was the intent all along but there was a miscommunication between myself and Nicholas. This will happen in the next couple of days.
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Visit my website for images, workshops and newsletters!

by steve mackay on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:05 am
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No disrespect to you Steven....but the whole point of this thread was about participation/commenting.....and seeing as you have posted only 120 times in the 4.5 years since you joined.....I am very, very surprised you even care how this forum is run????.
If I click on a topic and it's not what it seems, I just "click off", if what you are suggesting is Spam?, then just flag it up and NSN will delete it.

"USA is going through some very serious changes"......welcome to the worldwide party!, glad you can join us!....i'm not trying to be sarcastic but lots of us have been struggling for some time now (with still no signs of it changing much in the near future), I am personally very much affected by these times (compared to what it was before at least), but this has not affected my participation on forums like this......photography may not be a "requirement in life", but it is much more than just mere "entertainment" for many of us!

Looking forward to post 121 from you....but maybe just create a new topic about this?/not post it in this thread?  :)  ......and yes, i'm a complete hypocrite as I've gone completely off topic by replying :oops:

All the best :D

by Colin Inman on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:15 pm
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I guess there are a few reasons people don't offer critique, the obvious are :
Pressure of time - it does take time to do a good, honest critique;
Confidence - not everyone has the confidence to stand up and say what they feel;
Nice shot syndrome - there are days I look in the galleries and all I can offer is nice shot after nice shot, feels a bit superfluous at times.

That said Bill is absolutely right, and this is very much our community and we will only get out what we put in.
I'm sort of wary of the like button in terms of a popularity contest, but I do appreciate having it there when all I really have to offer is 'nice shot', and not as much time as I would like. Nonetheless taking time to write a proper critique is worth doing, with benefits not only for the photographer, and the wider community, but for the writer as you get to think about what does and doesn't work without the bias that comes from the investment you would have with your own images.
Colin

by Bill Lockhart on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:23 pm
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steve mackay wrote:
I genuinely think the inactive mods need to lead by example, otherwise what is the point of them?, what do you reckon Bill???

P.S i'm waiting for your latest comments on my latest images..... ;-)
Steve,

I am an inactive Mod. A while back I asked Greg to relieve me of the duties of serving as an active Mod. It simply amounted to time, something you mentioned in your reply, and frankly because as an active Mod I felt like I had to comment on every photograph that was posted. 

I do try to comment, but frankly I only comment when I feel compelled to do so, not because someone else commented on one of my shots. Generally I comment on stuff I like, which most of the time is stuff others don't like. :-)

The real value of commenting I think is to encourage. How do you encourage world class photographers? So, I look around for those who, like me, are still struggling to master the craft.

The reality is that people post photographs here hoping to get comments, and all of us, whether beginner or old hands, enjoy being praised. It hurts when someone slams one of my shots, at least for a while, then I realize that the comment was intended to help me improve what I am doing. So yes, negative comments do affect others. At my age, I have learned that my best friends are the ones who tell me the truth, hard as that might be. So good critiques, meant to encourage improvement, are needed. How else will any of us learn otherwise?

Well, I have digressed, I need to be out commenting, and asking more questions about "How did you do this?"

Best regards,

Bill

by mikeojohnson on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:12 pm
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I'll try to add a different perspective.  When the site was in its infancy, so was my photography.  As the site has grown, a whole series of active folks have moved on.  As my photography improved, so did many of the others who still post on this site.  So, I think that is why there are fewer comments and many are simply "great image"

I do try to add to some of the discussions where the original poster is asking for help and I have something to add.

Mike

by steve mackay on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:29 pm
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Hi Bill

Thanks for your reply.....to be honest I have never thought of you as an inactive mod in the way that I mean, you have recently posted images and commented on others.......so I think my words really came off a bit too scathing  :oops: .....I re-read my words this morning and I thought I may have actually committed NSN forum suicide!??? (and I pray this is not the case???)

I used to be a moderator on a nature photography forum and one of the other Mod's had to become "inactive" due to personal things......so I fully understand that the moderators just cannot be around all the time........but my gripe was with people that certainly have the time to post an image (sometimes with a large write-up and links to workshops, personal websites, even links to other forums! :shock: etc)......but can't seem to be bothered to post on others pics (and again, I most certainly have never thought of you as being one of these "people").

I am a little surprised that some folks are not all over any new comers posts, welcoming them and giving them constructive critism, so that they keep coming back......this was my main goal when I was a moderator, simply because other photographers on the forums have 'fast tracked' me to learn even simple things I know I would never have found out on my own (not in this lifetime or the next at least!).........but I also realise that this forum and the one I was a moderator on are completely different in their goals and member base.....I completely agree with your words on "encouragement" being the real value of commenting......and you just saying this says a whole lot about you and what you are about! :D

From my experience I am a little worried about offending people that I don't know well, as you rightly say - negative comments can really affect people........and words can so easily get lost in translation! (I fret about this on many an occasion and I worry it may have happened with my words in this thread?).........on the flip side, if someone gives a cool but negative comment on one of my images, I take it most firmly on the chin!...but I am reticent to give them the same back (even though I know they can take it)....because this looks like a tit for tat thing (which i'm not prepared to do, I come here because it's fun for me and I don't want to annoy people)

To be honest I almost wish I had never said anything now (which could be the problem for others too?), I hope I haven't offended anyone as this was not remotely my intention.......Greg's very busy (creating this cool place is surely a job in itself!!), E.J's probably posted more than anyone else here (and I never meant Greg, E.J or you with my previous words anyway...but I do now realise that this is how my previous words may have come across???......the "word's lost in translation" thing kicking in again)........so I think it's best if I just retract my statement lol.........there are lots of Mod's here because they take turns in their duties, full stop! 8)

on yet another flip side, when a person writes a detailed and constructive critique and the other person doesn't even reply to say "thanks for your suggestions, but I disagree"........it does put a person off spending the time to do it again in the future......and these were my real thoughts on the Mod's "leading by example"

by the way, I resigned as a "moderator" because it's a very thankless job! :lol:

All the very best Bill, I really hope I didn't offend you? (as this was not my intention, I don't like offending anyone), cheers and happy shooting! :D

Steve

by Bill Lockhart on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:05 pm
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steve mackay wrote:
Hi Bill

Thanks for your reply.....to be honest I have never thought of you as an inactive mod in the way that I mean, you have recently posted images and commented on others.......so I think my words really came off a bit too scathing  :oops: .....I re-read my words this morning and I thought I may have actually committed NSN forum suicide!??? (and I pray this is not the case???)

I used to be a moderator on a nature photography forum and one of the other Mod's had to become "inactive" due to personal things......so I fully understand that the moderators just cannot be around all the time........but my gripe was with people that certainly have the time to post an image (sometimes with a large write-up and links to workshops, personal websites, even links to other forums! :shock: etc)......but can't seem to be bothered to post on others pics (and again, I most certainly have never thought of you as being one of these "people").

I am a little surprised that some folks are not all over any new comers posts, welcoming them and giving them constructive critism, so that they keep coming back......this was my main goal when I was a moderator, simply because other photographers on the forums have 'fast tracked' me to learn even simple things I know I would never have found out on my own (not in this lifetime or the next at least!).........but I also realise that this forum and the one I was a moderator on are completely different in their goals and member base.....I completely agree with your words on "encouragement" being the real value of commenting......and you just saying this says a whole lot about you and what you are about! :D

From my experience I am a little worried about offending people that I don't know well, as you rightly say - negative comments can really affect people........and words can so easily get lost in translation! (I fret about this on many an occasion and I worry it may have happened with my words in this thread?).........on the flip side, if someone gives a cool but negative comment on one of my images, I take it most firmly on the chin!...but I am reticent to give them the same back (even though I know they can take it)....because this looks like a tit for tat thing (which i'm not prepared to do, I come here because it's fun for me and I don't want to annoy people)

To be honest I almost wish I had never said anything now (which could be the problem for others too?), I hope I haven't offended anyone as this was not remotely my intention.......Greg's very busy (creating this cool place is surely a job in itself!!), E.J's probably posted more than anyone else here (and I never meant Greg, E.J or you with my previous words anyway...but I do now realise that this is how my previous words may have come across???......the "word's lost in translation" thing kicking in again)........so I think it's best if I just retract my statement lol.........there are lots of Mod's here because they take turns in their duties, full stop! 8)

on yet another flip side, when a person writes a detailed and constructive critique and the other person doesn't even reply to say "thanks for your suggestions, but I disagree"........it does put a person off spending the time to do it again in the future......and these were my real thoughts on the Mod's "leading by example"

by the way, I resigned as a "moderator" because it's a very thankless job! :lol:

All the very best Bill, I really hope I didn't offend you? (as this was not my intention, I don't like offending anyone), cheers and happy shooting! :D

Steve

Hi Steve,

Well, you have given me much to chew on, as we say in the South.

First, no one is offended by what you have said. Most of the folks who have been here since the site started are shall we say "unruffled." Gosh knows, if you look at some of E.J.'s comments, especially to me, you soon realize that being frank and straight forward is part of NSN. So don't worry. In fact, keep it up.

Yes, there are folks here who are self-serving. They post here to get people to spend lots of money to attend their workshops. That's fine with me, it is the good old American way. But, I gotta tell you, some of these folks have helped me along the way. Little stuff that have improved what I do. Suggestions that have made a big difference. So, well, I am not all that upset that such folks post a shot, promote their stuff, then fly away.

YOU HAVE MADE A VERY GOOD SUGGESTION - COMMENT ON NEW MEMBERS POSTS! GREG NEEDS TO HAVE SOME WAY FOR US TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE IS NEW. THAT MIGHT SPARK SOME GOOD INTERACTION. BTW MODS ARE NOTIFIED OF NEW MEMBER POSTS, TOO BAD THAT ALL OF US AREN'T MADE AWARE AS WELL.

Don't worry about offending anyone. Tell it like it is. But, at the same time, make certain you make positive suggestions. A critique should be both. I post stuff that is junk, somebody needs to tell me that. Hopefully, after my junk appears the commentary addresses the issue with the post and makes positive suggestions for improvement. That is what this forum is about.

Never regret telling it like it is. No one here worth their salt will be offended. In fact, the tradition at NSN is to speak the truth, then offer help.

Some folks can't take constructive criticism. So? Let them go find another forum. If one is not willing to listen and learn, why are you here?

Yes, being a moderator is sorta like being a first grade teacher. Gosh knows it is difficult to encourage yet hold back on why Johnny really needs to go to  a trade school instead of college. But, well, when one assumes the role, one has to deal with the reality of the real world.

You have never offended me. I am beyond that sort of thing. In fact, I can't think of a single time when anything you have said has been offensive.

Good luck to you. You have a good heart. And that, my friend, is what all of this is about.

Best regards,


Bill

by jimbo on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:12 pm
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My two cents(with inflation ?)I am pretty new to this forum, I found it looking for help.  I appreciate the expertise
that is out there.  It is simply amazing.  While photography is a important part of my life, it is not my life.  Technology has it's positive, it has it's negative.  I simply do not allow myself to, get sucked into the time wasting aspect of technology.  At my age 72, I don't want to be spending time at a computer and or other technology, when I can be out and about enjoying what life, I have left.  There are cycles to everything in life and when this forum, has a slow time, I don't think we have to fret about it going away or becoming irrelevent.  Look at some of the other photography forums, almost no activity.  Thanks to all, that put in all their time, that makes this forum
work. For me I hope to die standing up, not waiting for a update to finish, on windows. !!!! simple as that.  Gday, and
 be well    Jim

by JKQ on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:02 pm
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I wonder if the average number of replies has gone down with the new format of NSN galleries. I find myself browsing the thumbnails more easily now and not opening images that I might have in the old format. The current format allows me to more easily not view a bird that doesn't interest me. I know this isn't fair, because the thumbnails do not do justice to some of the great images! Do the moderators have stats on this? It seems to me that in the old format, I opened each image sequentially when enjoying others work.

by wtracyparnell on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:21 pm
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Bill and Steve-thanks for your comments and as a newcomer here I believe they are right on the mark. I post and comment mostly in macro because that is my primary area of interest. When I do post in other forums I am guilty of the "great shot" syndrome and I use the "like" button now instead.

Having said that, yes I wish more folks would comment. I think you have already touched on the possible reasons they don't. Probably the toughest thing is to give a constructive critque that does not demoralize the photographer, especially if they are new to the forum or seem to be in a learning phase. The old adage of "list the positives first" and then touch on any negatives is probably the best advice. But if someone sincerely wants to improve some helpful advice from a really good photographer is one of the best ways. And one thing I have found is you never know how people will react to your photos. They may love something you're not that crazy about or vice versa.

Bottom line-it's a great forum that could be better for sure with more participation. But in the end, everyone has just so much time and how they use it is up to them.
W. Tracy Parnell
Comments on my images are greatly appreciated!

by Gary Tarbert on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:34 am
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Hi as Bill said earlier we only tend to comment on images we like ,I am guilty as well to some extent ,Although i will comment with suggestions sometimes ,To which someone will say leave as is ,so very subjective ,I use the lack of comments as a guide to whether a photo is going to be popular from a frame and sell point of view ,I recently posted a shot on the birds forum (i don't shoot birds a lot)just when i shoot with an avid birder here locally.It recieved only 2 comments one being an answer to a question from me ,So only one ,I thought it was alittle better than that not EP standard but not a shocker,Instead of i don't like it by silence would rather constructive criticism.
In reality the bird forum is the toughest just by number of posts , And a like by many on the forum of shots that look like they were shot in a studio .Cheers Gary

by Alexandre Vaz on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:51 am
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Although I agree that it's nice to have our images commented, I'm also happy just to know my fellows here are viewing what I've done. Also, the "Like this" button for me also replaces a few comments were I would just give credits to the photographer.

by Neilyb on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:47 pm
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To be honest since the new site design I have not even clicked on the Gallery link, you see it is new and different and we all hate that don't we? I tend to arrive at the discussion forum, add my 2cents and go back to faceb... I mean work. Must be more active. Must adapt. Thanks Bill for bringing it to light, I had forgotten what we all were really about.

by steve mackay on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:58 pm
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Thank you for your last reply Bill!, much appreciated!...but I do worry about offending anyone....simply because I get to have plenty of opportunities for confrontation in the real world lol (at work)...so I like to come to places like this because it's enjoyable for me (with the possibility of offending someone, would take this enjoyment away)...so for me, I completely agree that being truthful is ideal.....but sometimes if I comment on an image, I will often just mention the good parts of an image and exclude any bad points (which is a bit of a 'half critique')............but this is where the actual image poster can help out, perhaps they need to be more precise about what kind of critique they want?....a good start would be by saying themselves what they like or dislike about their image...as this is a very good way to start a critique if a person is concerned about offending the other person that they don't know/or is new to the forum.

All the very best Bill, cheers again for your reply! :)

by James Vellozzi on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:26 pm
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I was wondering if there is still an image Motif each week? Sometimes that helps to get participants and comments as such..
James
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www.JamesVellozziNaturephotography.com

by Carol Clarke on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:38 pm
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Goshawkjv wrote:
I was wondering if there is still an image Motif each week? Sometimes that helps to get participants and comments as such..
James


We certainly do still have a Motif in Wildlife.  You have to click on the 'Announcements' title - top right on the forum to see what the motif is for the current week.
Carol Clarke

"When the power of love is greater than the love of power,
the world will know peace"....Jimi Hendrix.

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