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by WJaekel on Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:30 am
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After applying Topaz Software (Gigapixel) on unchanged Raw files from Canon (R5, R3) and opening the exported DNG-files in Capture One 23, there's a terrible color shift, mostly to saturated greens but sometimes also to pink, too. The color temperature is always 5000K with the tint set to 0 in C1 after the import - no matter of the motifs and there's no chance to bring the colosr back to default, i.e. by copying/pasting the settings of the original CR3-Files in C1 or setting a correct white point in the DNG files. The only thing I can do so far, is to try and tweak mulitiple sliders in the color tabs in C1 to get the colors visually closer to the original raw files on the monitor screen. A color shift on imported DNG files is also evident after applying DxO PureRaw but not to the extent resulting with Topaz. There's no color shift in DxO or LR so it's probably a color space bug in C1 

I did a search and have seen a few reports of the same problem in the C1 forum (see below). Some users obviously had success by setting the color noise tab in C1 to 0. But that had no effect at all for me and others. I wouldn't see any logic behind that strategy either. Evidentally there's no issue in older versions of C1 - only in C22 (and in my case in C23, too). I cannot check it in older versions because I don't have them anymore on my PC and don't want to reinstall them. Obviously there are varying reactions from the C1 support - On one hand they said they don't deal with files from other software ;-), in another report they say it's a bug and they would look into it. But that was more than 6-12 months ago and C23 has the same issue. So they obviously don't care.

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/5164975028637-Color-issues-when-opening-DNG

So, if anybody has further insights or solutions, I would appreciate it

Thank you and Happy Holidays

Wolfgang
 

by E.J. Peiker on Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:31 pm
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I have always had much more success in any Topaz software by sending it a TIF file rather than a RAW file regardless of what software is doing the sending.
 

by WJaekel on Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:35 pm
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E.J. Peiker wrote:I have always had much more success in any Topaz software by sending it a TIF file rather than a  RAW file regardless of what software is doing the sending.
Thank you, E.J. Yes, that's the way I also did it for a long time until I got the impression, that the quality is a bit better (less artifacts) if I start with the unprocessed Raw files in Topaz - for Gigapixel, at least. But I will have to check and closely compare both ways again. Of course, any potential gain of quality by starting with raw files is questionable, if on the other hand the color rendition of the imported DNG files is just fake in C1 without any solution other than just trying to tweak the color, hue and saturation sliders in C1 in kind of a visual try and error approach. So sending the Tiff-files to Topaz as I did before,too, surely will be a way to avoid the color issues.

Nevertheless, it would be good to know the reason of this issue, exclusively happening in recent C1 versions. AFAIK, DNG actually is a general and wide spread format not dependend on the source and thus should correctly be read and handled in C1, too.

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Wolfgang
 

by E.J. Peiker on Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:21 pm
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WJaekel wrote:
E.J. Peiker wrote:I have always had much more success in any Topaz software by sending it a TIF file rather than a  RAW file regardless of what software is doing the sending.
Thank you, E.J. Yes, that's the way I also did it for a long time until I got the impression, that the quality is a bit better (less artifacts) if I start with the unprocessed Raw files in Topaz - for Gigapixel, at least. But I will have to check and closely compare both ways again. Of course, any potential gain of quality by starting with raw files is questionable, if on the other hand the color rendition of the imported DNG files is just fake in C1 without any solution other than just trying to tweak the color, hue and saturation sliders in C1 in kind of a visual try and error approach. So sending the Tiff-files to Topaz as I did before,too, surely will be a way to avoid the color issues.

Nevertheless, it would be good to know the reason of this issue, exclusively happening in recent C1 versions. AFAIK, DNG actually is a general and wide spread format not dependend on the source and thus should correctly be read and handled in C1, too.

Regards
Wolfgang
Yeah, I think at best you are getting marginal gains, if any, by sending a RAW file.  I would not be surprised if it was in fact worse since in that scenario Topaz would have to use it's own RAW processing engine to decode the files prior to applying the adjustment.  I think I would trust the likes of Capture One, On One, DXO, and yes even Adobe ;) to do a better job at decoding and extracting the most from a RAW file.
 

by E.J. Peiker on Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:22 pm
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By the way, have you tried sending the RAW capture to Topaz using different color spaces? It could be that Topaz is expecting a certain color space and you are sending something different or it may be returning it in a color space that is different from what your CaptureOne color space is.
 

by WJaekel on Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:18 am
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Thank you again for your comments, E.J. So far I've sent the Raw-files directly from the Win Explorer to Topaz and afterwards imported the resulting DNG-Files into C1 showing the color issue discussed here. In my understanding the original Raw -Files out of the cam have no color space embedded being a potential source of a conflict. The thinking behind my approach was to work with a "clean" raw file from the start before applying Gigapixel etc - that's to say without any adjustments made in C1 as it's the case with Tiff-files as the base for the export. But you made an important point that Topaz' own processing engine might decode the raw file before applying the adjustments and I agree to trust C1, DxO etc to do a better job here. I didn't take that into consideration though an inferior engine surely would affect the overall quality but I doubt it could be as bad to cause that dramatic color shift .
Nevertheless, you would think that C1 can handle DNG files correctly which obviously isn't the case - in contrary to DxO, LR, CameraRAW that render the DNG files from Topaz (!) as expected. Even if I send the fake colored DNG files from C1 to Photshop or DxO they look normal without strange color shifts.

As for the suggestion to try different color spaces, I'm not sure about that procedure and impact: In C1, I can either choose the dialogue  "edit with"-->  Topaz (in this scenario), but just select DNG, Tiff, PSD, PNG or JPEG  format by then - not the original RAW file. If I select DNG ,the colors in C1 are totally fake again after the reimport from Topaz. I don't see an option to change the color space for the editing process here.
Alternatively, I can use the "Export" -dialogue in C1. but again the result after applying Topaz and re-importing the files in C1 is weird - no matter if  I select DNG for the export or send the original raw file. I don't see any differences dependant on the color space - as far as it optionally can be changed in the dialogue. It doesn't matter if the colorspace is set to ProphotoRGB or AdobeRGB, though.
In the end, it's most likely a bug  with the color rendering of DNG files in C1 - not in Topaz etc. That said, I wonder why this problem obviously didn't occur in earlier versions of C1 - according to the reports, at least. It's evidentally a similar problem in reverse, too: DNG-files rendered in C1 cause weird color issues in other applications :

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/4403801780113-Exported-ARW-files-from-C1-to-DNG-turning-green-when-client-opens-them-in-Photoshop

So it looks like C1 cannot even render a correct DNG File from Raw by its own processing engine. But I know that the DNG- format was introduced by Adobe and the containers probably aren't compatible causing the suspicion that the optional  DNG format in C1 was just implemented for marketing reasons but seems worthless for further operations or archival purposes for C1 users. In a similar way LR and DxO obviously cannot deal with adjustments from C1 aside from cropping and white point setting.
I'm always interested in finding solutions for problems and learning new things. But for now, I think I have to go back to the original strategy to send Tif-Files to Topaz as you do.

Wolfgang
 

by E.J. Peiker on Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:04 am
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Actually most cameras do tag the files with a color space, by default sRGB and optionally through the menu by Adobe RGB.  If the first charachter in the file name is an underscore _ then it is tagged with Adobe RGB.  The actual data in the RAW file is the same and contains everything the camera captured but the file is still tagged with a color space.  This can trip up some software.  DNG files themselves are a bit tricky as it is an Adobe standard that they have changed a number of times since the inception of DNG.  Unless the camera has DNG as a capture option, when converting from your camera's native RAW file (NEF, ARW, CR2, etc...) not everything can get passed to the DNG file as camera manufacturers often embed some proprietary information in the files that DNG can't capture.  It is very common to get some color shifts that have to be undone in RAW processing when converting a native RAW format to a DNG.  I have never seen a conversion from any of the camera RAW formats I routinely use (Sony, Nikon Fuji) where there isn't some color shif in the DNG conversion of the RAW data.  All of this is then compounded by whatever RAW color space you are using with your ultimate RAW converter - there are just a ton of conversions going on, especially when you put a non camera specific RAW format like DNG into the mix.  I don't think it's actually a CaptureOne specific problem.  From what I understand from what you have written so far, you are first capturing a RAW file with your camera's native RAW format which is tagged with either sRGB or Adobe RGB depending on how you have set up your camera.  This is then being sent through a DNG conversion process which works in ProPhoto RGB.  Next it is sent through Topaz and who knows what their RAW engine is doing and what internal color space it uses but it's another conversion.  Then it's being sent back to Capture One after already having gone through as much as three color space conversions.  I'd be surprised if there weren't color issues after that route.  It is certainly possible that a bug crept into Capture One that makes it much worse but like I said, I've never not seen at least some color shift just in a simple NEF or ARW to DNG conversion which makes sense since there are at least two color space assignments just in that simple process.

I guess at this point, you probably need to contact Capture One and see what they have to say about your flow and if they know of any issues that were introduced in 23 that could make it worse.  I've found them to be pretty honest in the past when bugs have crept in.
 

by WJaekel on Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:32 pm
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E.J., thank you very much for those detailed informations. I really appreciate them. I wasn't aware that the native Raw files from the cams are also tagged with a color space to begin with. Of course I know, that this is the case for JPEGs including the embedded previews from the Raws. I've set up the color space to AdobeRGB in my cams. Just to clarify my original procedure : I see 2 conversions (not 3)  if the camera's native RAWs are directly sent (drawn) to Topaz via the WinExplorer and afterwards imported in C1. So originally there was no "detour" via C1 to convert the Raw to DNG before sending it to Topaz which in fact would add an additional step of conversion. But I just tried that way, too, in order to check if there's a difference of the color shift by sending the file as DNG from C1 to Topaz. They look even worse after the reimport by then.

I also thought that DNG is, before all, a standard file format with no converter-specific adjustments, just containing meta data and that's the reason for some people to choose DNG as an independant format for archival purposes, too.  Presumably cameras could write some informations in DNG, though, causing some color differences in various applications by then as it's the case with the native Raw formats from different manufacturers and even various cameras from the same brand. That would be logical and not a problem to tweak in the raw converter as long as the differences aren't huge. However, DNG is not a capture option in my cams and even if it was, you wouldn't expect absurd fake colors to the extent we're discussing here. Furthermore, I was not familiar with the evidence that applications such as C1, Topaz, DxO etc  "silently" write anything into the DNG resulting in color shifts rendered out of this world when opened in another converter. Note that native Raw files sent to Topaz and its generated  DNG files opened in DxO or PS look as expected without shifted colors, though, - despite Topaz, PS and DxO are also different applications, of course. BTW, you would'nt think of Jpegs to cause dramatic color shifts either when opened in different color-managed applications. Anyways, C1's informations regarding this color issue point in the direction of different rendering of DNGs :

(quote):
"DNG files from camera models with native support in Capture One will per default have their native Capture One colors applied. DNG files from camera models that are not natively supported in Capture One will have generic DNG Standard colors applied.
We do not support adjustments and settings from other applications embedded in DNG files"

However, on a later user request the CaptureOne Tech replied as follows

(Quote):
"I consider this a bug and I've filed a report with all the details for our R&D team to audit the issue. It looks like a regression in 15.1 indeed. I will place your ticket on-hold and will get back to you when we have a response from our engineers....
We also cannot guarantee that this bug will be fixed in the next service release, but rest assured that it has been reported and will be looked into and our developers will do their best to roll out a fix as soon as possible. "

That was 6 months ago ;-) and actually it's a known issue since C1 v22, at least - not only in v23I cannot check anymore  if there was no problem in C1 v20 and older versions as it was reported in the C1-forum.
Based on the feed backs from C1 above, I don't think that it makes any sense to contact them additionally. on my part. As said before, I will need to send Tif-files to Topaz in the future again until there are further news - unless I want to visually tweak the fake colors in C1 for taste by using their color sliders. As described earlier, it doesn't work either to get the colors back to normal by copying the settings from the unprocessed native Raw file to the reimported DNG in C1. It turns out that the DNG format isn't a valid option in C1 to date. That's true for DNGs imported from other applications as well as files converted to DNG with C1 for use in other programs.

Thank you again and Happy Holidays

Wolfgang
 

by Hoppy on Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:01 am
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I have only just had the same issue. I use C1 22.  I was converting some old jpegs to dng using Gigapixel as my OS no longer supports Jpg to Raw.  Same issue, mainly pink skies rather than blue.  I was able to change the hue in the colour editor to what is should have been, however its an extra step.  I saw the same shift in Affinity Photo.  I could not try DXO as my old camera, Pentax *istD, was not supported.  However, I had no colour shift using Photoshop.
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by E.J. Peiker on Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:21 am
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Very interesting, so C1 and Affinity see a color shift when passing a RAW file directly through Topaz but others do not. That makes me think that Topaz is doing something strange to some data field in the file that Affinity and C1 are reading and the others are ignoring...
 

by E.J. Peiker on Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:25 am
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One thing that would be interesting is just to do a straight RAW conversion in C1 after the pass through Topaz without doing anything else in the RAW converter - is the color shift still present in the output file?  If no then there is a problem in preview generation of files passed through Topaz.  C1 23 definitely has some weird stuff going on sometimes in preview generation that I've noticed and there are most definitely some bugs in there although my issues haven't been with color but rather the wrong preview being assigned to a file.
 

by WJaekel on Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:04 pm
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E.J. Peiker wrote:One thing that would be interesting is just to do a straight RAW conversion in C1 after the pass through Topaz without doing anything else in the RAW converter - is the color shift still present in the output file?  If no then there is a problem in preview generation of files passed through Topaz.  C1 23 definitely has some weird stuff going on sometimes in preview generation that I've noticed and there are most definitely some bugs in there although my issues haven't been with color but rather the wrong preview being assigned to a file.
I did a quick test with a native RAW file transferred into Topaz Gigapixel via the WinExplorer. The created DNG file afterwards was imported into C1 and converted to 16 bit Tif without anything changed or tweaked in C1 before. The Color space in C1 is set to ProphotoRGB.
The color shift is the same in PS after the conversion and identical to the preview in C1. So the color shift isn't just a preview bug in C1.

Wolfgang
 

by E.J. Peiker on Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:36 am
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I just noticed something in the Topaz AI apps that might make a difference in regards to this color shift.  In the preferences for the various Topaz AI programs, there is a switch for applying RAW color adjustments.  You might try turning that on or off to see if it makes a difference.
 

by Hoppy on Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:01 pm
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E.J. Peiker wrote:I just noticed something in the Topaz AI apps that might make a difference in regards to this color shift.  In the preferences for the various Topaz AI programs, there is a switch for applying RAW color adjustments.  You might try turning that on or off to see if it makes a difference.
E.J.  I tried this with the same image where I had issues before and unfortunately no difference.  I then tried switching off the Gamma correction but still got the same result.  Good thought though.
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by WJaekel on Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:22 am
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E.J. Peiker wrote: I just noticed something in the Topaz AI apps that might make a difference in regards to this color shift.  In the preferences for the various Topaz AI programs, there is a switch for applying RAW color adjustments.  You might try turning that on or off to see if it makes a difference.
I've seen that setting in the Topaz' preferences before and already had tried  to switch it on/off with no effect on the color shift as Hoppy has confirmed it, too.
Anyway, thank you for the advice, though.

Wolfgang
 

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