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by c.w. moynihan on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:52 am
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Scott Fairbairn wrote:too much time on Leica review :(
LOL, nothing like Leica snobbery...
Christian

[i]Cuz I'm free as a bird now and this bird you cannot change ! [/i]
 

by c.w. moynihan on Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:27 pm
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some 7D shots of motorsports racing. I'm a Porsche fan, so I thought I would pass on the link with this guy's initial impressions.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/sho ... 26&page=18
Christian

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by akclimber on Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:34 pm
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Here're some 100-6400 in camera jpg shots with NR at normal:

http://www.arsen.ca/p438495646/hcbdb5a6#h2406acc1

Some high (1600-12800) shots:

http://chanandrew.com/trips.htm
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by Scott Fairbairn on Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:13 pm
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Well, I've got one in my hands right now. Very little time to test it out today, but a few observations so far. First, I really dislike DPP, very irritating to have to check/uncheck the auto lighting optimizer button in order to alter the noise reduction settings. I can't wait for a converter I use to support these files. Second, the new location for the power switch will take some getting used to. I've turned the camera off twice now when I've turned the mode dial. Third, I am not impressed with the IQ that I am seeing so far, I tried a series from ISO 200 to 6400, but there is a softness or something to the files that I am not liking. Maybe it's just unfamiliarity with DPP, but the files have look to them that is seems typical of small sensors. Hopefully I will get a better chance tomorrow to test it out.
 

by akclimber on Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:10 pm
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Scott Fairbairn wrote:Well, I've got one in my hands right now. Very little time to test it out today, but a few observations so far. First, I really dislike DPP, very irritating to have to check/uncheck the auto lighting optimizer button in order to alter the noise reduction settings. I can't wait for a converter I use to support these files. Second, the new location for the power switch will take some getting used to. I've turned the camera off twice now when I've turned the mode dial. Third, I am not impressed with the IQ that I am seeing so far, I tried a series from ISO 200 to 6400, but there is a softness or something to the files that I am not liking. Maybe it's just unfamiliarity with DPP, but the files have look to them that is seems typical of small sensors. Hopefully I will get a better chance tomorrow to test it out.
Looking forward to your report, Scott.

Thanks & cheers!
Joe McCabe
Juneau, Alaska
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by OntPhoto on Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:32 pm
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Scott Fairbairn wrote:Third, I am not impressed with the IQ that I am seeing so far, I tried a series from ISO 200 to 6400, but there is a softness or something to the files that I am not liking........but the files have look to them that is seems typical of small sensors. Hopefully I will get a better chance tomorrow to test it out.
Did Galbraith hint at some of the characteristics in his quick review of a pre-production camera?

"At all ISO increments, other than the very lowest ones, pictures can take on a slightly harsh appearance not present in larger-pixel cameras in Canon's lineup, such as the EOS-1D Mark III, or Nikon's D3 and D700."

"Correcting for digital dandruff requires image detail to be softened, sometimes considerably, while the slight harshness is simply a trait to be lived with. This means that overall, 7D image quality is shaping up to be very good. If weighted against how minuscule its sensor's pixels are, image quality is astounding. Put in charge of the 7D's development, however, we'd have chosen something like a 12MP sensor with better high ISO performance and richer low ISO files."
 

by Glenn Bartley on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:32 pm
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I remember the first time I looked at my 50D files after shooting with the 40D... The first thing I noticed was that they seemed softer. I think that whatever canon is doing to cram more pixels in there they wind up having to soften the image details to get acceptable IQ in other regards. Some of this seems to be tolerable with a bit of extra capture sharpening added to the workflow (as I did when I got my 50D). But you've just gotta question the logic here from Canon...

My prediction is that in a week or so when all the reviews come out from all the users that we will be left with a great performing camera with IQ that leaves something to be desired...as a result those wanting more from their camera will be forced to wait for the next 1D series body which will probably provide what these users desire.

With that said I hope I am wrong and the 7D is fantastic and IQ is sweet. Time will tell...
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by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:42 pm
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Curious to see the AF performance of production units at BIFs with busy background. The beta 7D I tested weeks ago had trouble picking up the BIF in this situation. I hope the production 7Ds are much better.

Romy
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by E.J. Peiker on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:52 pm
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liquidstone wrote:Curious to see the AF performance of production units at BIFs with busy background. The beta 7D I tested weeks ago had trouble picking up the BIF in this situation. I hope the production 7Ds are much better.
A 1D3 doesn't do that well if at all so I doubt a 7D would.
 

by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:06 pm
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E.J. Peiker wrote:
liquidstone wrote:Curious to see the AF performance of production units at BIFs with busy background. The beta 7D I tested weeks ago had trouble picking up the BIF in this situation. I hope the production 7Ds are much better.
A 1D3 doesn't do that well if at all so I doubt a 7D would.

My 1D2 can pick up the BIF from a busy BG even with a 1.4x TC on the 500 f4 IS. I used this body interchangeably with the beta 7D during my field test, and the new camera just can't pin down the BIF from the BG, even when I used the bare 500 f4 IS. The AF hardware seems to be great, as it can acquire and track BIFs very fast and accurately when the BG is sky. I suspect some tweaks on the AI servo algorithms of the beta 7D are needed. I've forwarded a private report to Canon Manila on this, together with some feedback/recommendation on AF from a user's POV.
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by ejmartin on Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:29 pm
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50D RAW data shows that it has the resolving power that would be expected from the pixel pitch:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=29967521
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=30001276

actually, it may be that the 50D has a slightly weaker AA filter (relative to pixel size) and so is a bit sharper proportionally. We'll see what the 7D brings; right now it's just speculation, but I would be surprised if the camera was softer at the pixel level in its design.

That does not mean that images will not be softer at the pixel level. Smaller pixels resolve many effects more accurately. Some are good things -- more image detail, for instance. But one will also resolve better

-- diffraction effects
-- lens aberrations
-- motion blur

So yes images will be softer at the pixel level, but not necessarily softer overall. For instance, smaller pixels will better resolve a diffraction pattern, but this means that the increase in resolution will take place at a somewhat slower pace than the ratio of pixel pitches once the diffraction limited region has been entered. Resolution never decreases due to the above effects when pixels are made smaller.

In addition smaller pixels will be noisier (unfortunate but a property of photon sampling statistics). Here there is a rather nonlinear interaction with RAW conversion software. The effect of noise on the conversion output is highly dependent on the nature of the demosaic algorithm, and it is not clear to me that software has kept up with hardware. For instance, ACR does a very poor job on high ISO images; therefore, one would expect that as one keeps the ISO fixed and decreases the pixel size, ACR will also do a poorer job. To get the most out of smaller pixels, conversion algorithms will need to be more robust against noise. I suspect they can be ;)
emil
 

by Scott Fairbairn on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:06 pm
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A couple of more observations, I did a quick and dirty test of a stuffed animal at a variety of ISO's using a macro. With the same subject to camera distance, I did comparison's to the 1Dsm2. Then equalized the subject sizes and compared. As expected the 7D easily outresolves the 1Dsm2, and noise is much better as well.
The frame rate I haven't figured out, but it looks a bit dodgy to say it shoots at 8fps, under ideal conditions possibly, but in dim light it's no where near that amount, even if you set a high shutter speed.
 

by AJAY on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:21 pm
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Romy...I assumed that your BIF testing did not find favorable results due to your silence on the subject.

Busy backgrounds have always been a problem, albeit less of a problem with the 1DM2. Do you have any feel for how it compares to a mid-class camera like the 50D or 40D?

Alan
 

by thedigitalbean on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:40 pm
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liquidstone wrote:Curious to see the AF performance of production units at BIFs with busy background. The beta 7D I tested weeks ago had trouble picking up the BIF in this situation. I hope the production 7Ds are much better.

Romy
Romy, did you try spot AF for this type of BIF? In documentation I had read it seems that Canon attributed some of this behavior to the relatively large AF points on the Mk3. I figured spot AF was their attempt at a solution.
[b]Aravind[/b]
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by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:04 pm
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AJAY wrote:Romy...I assumed that your BIF testing did not find favorable results due to your silence on the subject.

Busy backgrounds have always been a problem, albeit less of a problem with the 1DM2. Do you have any feel for how it compares to a mid-class camera like the 50D or 40D?

Alan
I purposely didn't post my impressions earlier because the AI servo issue might be limited to the beta camera I was using and it will be corrected on the production units. Now that production 7Ds are out, my initial experience can be easily confirmed or debunked by other BIF shooters. I sincerely wish that the production 7Ds are better because I love the feature set of the new camera, and I plan to make it my primary birding body once AF performance is confirmed.

I haven't used a 50D extensively, but I owned a 40D since its release and I'd say the beta 7D's AF (at BIFs with busy BG) is much closer to the 40D's AF than to my 1D2's AF.

The concern with the beta 7D I tested was it seemed it stubbornly stuck to the contrastier BG, very seldomly trying to focus on the BIF (mostly Whiskered Terns, which are actually easy targets because of their white plumage and dark heads). And yes, I've tried all permutations of AF settings on the beta 7D for two whole days. Lenses used were 800 5.6L IS (bare), 500 f4 IS (bare and with 1.4x TC), 400 2.8 IS (bare) and 400 5.6L (bare). During the course of my field test, I routinely mounted my 1D2 and even my 5D2 (center point AI servo, expansion points enabled) and the two older bodies could pick out the BIF from the BG in the same situation where the beta 7D couldn't.

Let me quote (in italics) part of my feed back to Canon Manila:

"From my point of view, the AF processor and sensor are very fast, as evidenced by the amazing AF speed and tracking accuracy when the background of the BIF is a plain sky. The right AF hardware is already there. I suspect that what needs to be done is just a tweak of the AF algorithms, and this can perhaps be implemented via firmware.

"With the beta 7D’s AF as tested, the active AF point(s) almost always lock(s) onto the contrasty background, ignoring the BIF. I surmise that the BIF with its fluttering wings pose a less contrasty signature to the AF sensor, hence the subject is “ignored.”

"I propose that the AF algorithms be tweaked so that when the AF sensor “sees” a less contrasty object nearer the camera, it prioritizes AF on that object even if the background is more contrasty. This can be implemented as an additional “Near Object AF Priority” menu, and can be added to the AF custom functions."
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by akclimber on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:24 pm
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Romy,

We Canon shooters are lucky to have had you as a beta tester! Thanks for the interesting information.

Now that the camera has gone public, can you also tell us your impression of the beta cam's image quality?

Cheers!
Joe McCabe
Juneau, Alaska
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by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:28 pm
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thedigitalbean wrote:
liquidstone wrote:Curious to see the AF performance of production units at BIFs with busy background. The beta 7D I tested weeks ago had trouble picking up the BIF in this situation. I hope the production 7Ds are much better.

Romy
Romy, did you try spot AF for this type of BIF? In documentation I had read it seems that Canon attributed some of this behavior to the relatively large AF points on the Mk3. I figured spot AF was their attempt at a solution.

Yes, I've tried Spot AF too in addition to many permutations of AF settings. Single Point AF (with or without expansion points) work better at BIFs with busy BG. At static targets however, Spot AF is impressively accurate.
Romy Ocon
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Last edited by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

by liquidstone on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:31 pm
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akclimber wrote:Romy,

We Canon shooters are lucky to have had you as a beta tester! Thanks for the interesting information.

Now that the camera has gone public, can you also tell us your impression of the beta cam's image quality?

Cheers!
Hi Joe,

Again, I'll quote (in italics) what I already posted earlier in other forums (I also included this in my feed back to Canon Manila):

Based on capturing and processing in DPP many RAWs with a beta 7D, here are my impressions on the camera's noise characteristics. Note that this is a result of my subjective "visual feel," and not based on objective scientific testing or numbers.

2.1. ISO 100 is very clean and can take aggressive sharpening before noise starts to be noticeable in the shadows.

2.2. ISO 200 - 400 are not as clean when compared pixel-to-pixel as those of my 5D2, 40D, 1D2 and 20D. Noise (albeit very fine grained) starts to be noticeable in the shadows with aggressive sharpening.

2.3. ISO 3200 - 6400 have fine grained noise, but none of the banding I see in the 5D2. Even ISO 12800 has no or very little banding, but the noise grains seem to be larger, and as such this ISO is perhaps only useable for smaller prints or for greatly resized web photos.

2.4. I'm under the impression that the 7D's noise charateristics are optimized for print rather than pixel-peeping at 100%. I welcome this approach, as we can easily filter out the noise when posting web-sized photos. I haven't printed 7D photos yet, but when I compare these to my previous photos which were printed large, the 7D's fine-grained noise should do well in printing.
Romy Ocon
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by AJAY on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:36 pm
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Thanks as usual Romy for the articulate response.

I haven't quite decided yet on the 7D. I have been really enjoying the 5D Mark II and although it is not really meant for sports/wildlife photography per se, the full frame sensor does make it easier to capture BIF without clipping wings out of frame. I've also been using the 5D Mark II for wildlife video with (2) Sennheiser ME67's for audio pickup.

I also have the 50D and I find the AI focus to be comparable to the 40D

I never thought I would be doing as much video with the 5DM2 as I have. I'm glad to see the 7D with the video enhancements. It adds a whole new dimension to digitally capturing birds/wildlife.

Cheers,

Alan
 

by akclimber on Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:50 pm
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Thanks a million, Romy!
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