Canon Introduces EOS 5D Mk IV

E.J. Peiker wrote:

Robert Sabin wrote:It absolutely MUST have vastly improved Dynamic Range and High Iso performance to match or near match Nikon or Sony.
Nothing else matters for me.

At the 24mp APS-C level, Canon sensor technology has cut in half the gap between It and Sony sensor technology so I am not expecting the 5D4 to get to the levels that have been available in full frame sensors for 4.5 years in the D800/D810 and a7/a7R (at a higher resolution) but it should be a fairly substantial improvement over the relatively poor dynamic range of the 5D3 and 5Ds(R).

On the big flagship cameras, the 1Dx2 actually is a bit better for dynamic range than the D5 but the D5 does not use a Sony sensor and has taken a different approach sacrificing a bit of low ISO dynamic range for better high ISO dynamic range.  For what I do, that's a mistake but then I have no use for a 1Dx2 or D5 so it doesn't matter to me personally.

IMO, the 5Ds(R) is somewhat better for low ISO DR compared to the 5D3 though not by a huge margin. More important, it doesn't have the banding issue when moderately lifting the shadows. I guess the 5D IV will have a similar DR as the 1Dx2 but I agree that it probably will not get to the level of the D810 or A7R. Tests will tell.

As to the 1Dx2 I really don't understand why they restricted the touch screen functionality in that flagship camera and don't offer the continuous focus in live view by the Dual pixel AF technology. Let's hope that there will be a firmware update in the next future.

All in all the 5D IV certainly will be a successful performer again. The buffer capacity is disappointing, though. Used 5d3 bodies in good shape are sold for around 1600 €  and the price probably will drop further once the market will be flooded by the adopters. That said, IMO the price of 4065 € for the 5d4 resulting in a jump of nearly 2500 € is too high despite the improvements. Given the huge interest in that camera I don't expect the price to go down very soon in the next months.

Wolfgang

E.J. Peiker wrote:

Robert Sabin wrote:It absolutely MUST have vastly improved Dynamic Range and High Iso performance to match or near match Nikon or Sony.
Nothing else matters for me.

At the 24mp APS-C level, Canon sensor technology has cut in half the gap between It and Sony sensor technology so I am not expecting the 5D4 to get to the levels that have been available in full frame sensors for 4.5 years in the D800/D810 and a7/a7R (at a higher resolution) but it should be a fairly substantial improvement over the relatively poor dynamic range of the 5D3 and 5Ds(R).

On the big flagship cameras, the 1Dx2 actually is a bit better for dynamic range than the D5 but the D5 does not use a Sony sensor and has taken a different approach sacrificing a bit of low ISO dynamic range for better high ISO dynamic range.  For what I do, that's a mistake but then I have no use for a 1Dx2 or D5 so it doesn't matter to me personally.

Nothing in the announcement about Dynamic Range or High Iso...NOT a good sign...We will know in a week or 2.. I will be happy with 13.9DR  like the 1Dx2 and to shoot at 3200-6400 with little noise...

Canon has the technical prowess and deep pockets to surprise E.J.......The Jury is Out...

Robert Sabin wrote:Nothing in the announcement about Dynamic Range or High Iso...NOT a good sign...We will know in a week or 2.. I will be happy with 13.9DR  like the 1Dx2 and to shoot at 3200-6400 with little noise...

Canon has the technical prowess and deep pockets to surprise E.J.......The Jury is Out...

Not really, the semiconductor technology used on this sensor is identical to what is in the 80D and 1Dx2 so we should expect sensor performance that scales with pixel size compared to those cameras.  The pixel size is in between the 80D and the 1Dx2 and it uses the same technology so likely the dynamic range is in between those two cameras for the same ISO in RAW files which would put it between 13.2 and 13.5 using the DXO scale which is a highly optimistic scale but that's generally what everybody uses for numbers comparison.  JPEGs are harder to predict since they are so dependent on what the manufacturer does in cooking the JPEG files.

For real world use observable Dynamic range, I use this site to compare cameras:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Robert Sabin wrote:

E.J. Peiker wrote:

Robert Sabin wrote:It absolutely MUST have vastly improved Dynamic Range and High Iso performance to match or near match Nikon or Sony.
Nothing else matters for me.

At the 24mp APS-C level, Canon sensor technology has cut in half the gap between It and Sony sensor technology so I am not expecting the 5D4 to get to the levels that have been available in full frame sensors for 4.5 years in the D800/D810 and a7/a7R (at a higher resolution) but it should be a fairly substantial improvement over the relatively poor dynamic range of the 5D3 and 5Ds(R).

On the big flagship cameras, the 1Dx2 actually is a bit better for dynamic range than the D5 but the D5 does not use a Sony sensor and has taken a different approach sacrificing a bit of low ISO dynamic range for better high ISO dynamic range.  For what I do, that's a mistake but then I have no use for a 1Dx2 or D5 so it doesn't matter to me personally.

Nothing in the announcement about Dynamic Range or High Iso...NOT a good sign...We will know in a week or 2.. I will be happy with 13.9DR  like the 1Dx2 and to shoot at 3200-6400 with little noise...

Canon has the technical prowess and deep pockets to surprise E.J.......The Jury is Out...

Canon USA never mentioned the new on sensor ADC design on the 80D and 1DXII and the improved DR for some reason I would expect at least the same DR as the 80D and 1DXII. As far as high ISO most new cameras are already so efficient that majority of the noise at the higher ISO is photon noise so again unless there was a break through in sensor efficiency it should be on par with all current market Canons. 

Vivek wrote:Interesting body for sure. I agree with Arash that this should *not* have the AA filter removed. Actually I bought a 5Ds for a recent trip to South America and an really impressed with the sharpness even though this is not 5Ds*R*. With the 500IS-II, this is a dream body and I loved using it in the Galapagos and Ecuador. The fine feather detail is very very good and so I am happy with the 5Ds. The only thing I complain about is the time it takes to render the "full" previews in LR. May be I need a new processing beast.

The things I am looking forward to in this body are the low ISO noise performance, diffraction correction (interesting addition) and the DPRAW capability. I am not the one to jump on new technology, so I will wait it out on the sidelines. For now, it does seem to be a decent upgrade on paper but time (and internet reviews) will tell the full story soon.

Hey Vivek, 

The current DPP 4.4 actually has diffraction correction available for the 1DX MKII already (it's under lens correction tab). I am not sure if DPRAW will provide any benefit here. When shooting with super telephoto lenses at wide apertures diffraction isn't a limiting factor any way. What is really potentially a game changer for wildlife and avian photographers who are critical about IQ is the post-capture focus MA. This video shows a very promising example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQ9MSRRvn4 it could siginficantly increase the keeper ratio. Bokeh shift is interesting too. 

Of course each file then becomes effectively a 60-mega pixel RAW and it needs more calculations but because it is mostly matrix operations it can be done on the GPU. Canon DPP4.4 has also added native CUDA support so my guess is it will handle the files well. 


I hope that Canon will add DPRAW to 1DX2 as well, I think the dual-pixel hardware is there already. 

I am not sure if DPRAW will provide any benefit here. When shooting with super telephoto lenses at wide apertures diffraction isn't a limiting factor any way. What is really potentially a game changer for wildlife and avian photographers who are critical about IQ is the post-capture focus MA. This video shows a very promising example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQ9MSRRvn4 it could siginficantly increase the keeper ratio. Bokeh shift is interesting too. wrote: Of course each file then becomes effectively a 60-mega pixel RAW and it needs more calculations but because it is mostly matrix operations it can be done on the GPU. Canon DPP4.4 has also added native CUDA support so my guess is it will handle the files well. 


I hope that Canon will add DPRAW to 1DX2 as well, I think the dual-pixel hardware is there already. 

If my assumptions are correct with long telephoto lenses the amount of focus shift will be very minimal.

It depends on the distance, it could be noticeble at closer range where it matters most given the shallow DOF. we shall see.

On paper, sensor allowing, it all sounds great. But. Shooting 30MP RAWs at 7fps, IMO, requires a CFast card at least, unless the buffer is 60plus images and even then there is anbottleneck. Only having CF as the fastest option is, IMO, suicide. In Europe this body will cost 4k€, a bit more and I can buy a 1dx2.... bravo Canon, you left us hanging again! Maybe I will not be leaving the Sony ship just yet for my landscapes. Keep the 1dx for all else.

Neilyb wrote:On paper, sensor allowing, it all sounds great. But. Shooting 30MP RAWs at 7fps, IMO, requires a CFast card at least, unless the buffer is 60plus images and even then there is anbottleneck. Only having CF as the fastest option is, IMO, suicide. In Europe this body will cost 4k€, a bit more and I can buy a 1dx2.... bravo Canon, you left us hanging again! Maybe I will not be leaving the Sony ship just yet for my landscapes. Keep the 1dx for all else.

I read that the buffer size is 21 raw files on the CF card and 19 on the SD - definitely a serious drawback if it's true. Just 3 seconds of shooting at 7fps.
As for the storage, the prices of the CFast cards still are insane, IMO. Given the fact that many photogs own a bunch of CF cards it's not too bad that you're not forced to add even considerably more dollars or Euros to the premuium price of the 5d4.Maybe a dual CF/CFast solution provided for the 1dx2 would have been a good compromise.

Wolfgang

Here's a scathing review of the 5D4 - it pretty much articulates what I have read/heard from a number of serious video shooters but puts it more bluntly and succinctly and mirrors what my first impression was just from reading the video specs. But since I am far from a video expert I kept my mouth shut but now I am reading more and more stuff like this.  My initial impression when I first read the spec sheet was that if the camera truly doesn't have a log profile for video then this thing is a complete non-starter for serious video - heck even sub-thousand dollar 4K capable cameras have that and motion JPEG is a really amateurish choice too.  And then there is no 4K video to an external recorder... Huh????   Ahazeghi called it a video powerhouse earlier in the thread and it really should have been given the 5D Mark IV's lineage but from what I'm reading, that's not how it is being received by the DSLR film-making community:
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/08/1-74x-crop ... announced/

And the mind boggling choice of using Motion JPEG is covered well at the 6:25 mark here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quwAvqcbLRw
(The Northrups often get a lot of things wrong, like their assessment of increased detail earlier in the video but they get the problem with Motion JPEG absolutely right)

I didn't call it a video powerhouse. I said it's a video workhouse.

The same internet experts said the same things about the previous generations of the 5D as well, despite this many prime time TV shows were made even with the 5D2. http://www.imdb.com/list/ls059550382/ so it's good enough for these folks.




I don't really understand all this negativity. Reminds me of Dpreview.com.  if you don't like it don't buy it. Especially if you are not A canon shooter anyway I don't see the point in all the bashing. All cameras have strengths and weaknesses. 

OK, but I think the negatives of any camera should be covered just as much as the positives and from what I am seeing from the video community, this camera is not going over well.  Objectivity is important I think.  It isn't a personal attack, sorry I misquoted you but the point is the same.  It should have basic things like a real CODEC and LOG which many sub $1000 cameras have.  We are no longer in a 5D2 world - when that came out, video on a DSLR was new and novel, now it's mainstream.  We now have killer 4K video with real CODECs and real LOG profiles in cameras that cost much less.  Pointing that out should not be an insult, it's not bashing, it is pointing out clear deficiencies which I do on other cameras including those I own; besides I shoot with Canon gear fairly often, I just don't own any, not that that should make any difference.

I think the problem is that Canon touts its video prowess in this camera but leaves it wanting (perhaps FW can help). Kind of reminds of the well received XC10. I wonder if a lcd loupe will be coming next.  As a still camera, I am waiting to see if this camera is a great improvement over the MKIII, on paper there are some notable improvements but no objective reviews yet.

Mike in O wrote:I think the problem is that Canon touts its video prowess in this camera but leaves it wanting (perhaps FW can help). Kind of reminds of the well received XC10. I wonder if a lcd loupe will be coming next.  As a still camera, I am waiting to see if this camera is a great improvement over the MKIII, on paper there are some notable improvements but no objective reviews yet.

I think the best option for the landscape photographer in the Canon world is to get a 5DsR and then take two shots for every photo except in low contrast situations.  One at the correct ETTR exposure and one at +2 Ev from that exposure and then just luminosity mask every shot that needs shadow detail.  That basically replicates the dynamic range of higher dynamic range sensors but with exceptional resolution.  As long as things aren't blowing around too much, that would work really well and you could use Canon's exceptional lens line.

ahazeghi wrote:I didn't call it a video powerhouse. I said it's a video workhouse.

The same internet experts said the same things about the previous generations of the 5D as well, despite this many prime time TV shows were made even with the 5D2. http://www.imdb.com/list/ls059550382/ so it's good enough for these folks.




I don't really understand all this negativity. Reminds me of Dpreview.com.  if you don't like it don't buy it. Especially if you are not A canon shooter anyway I don't see the point in all the bashing. All cameras have strengths and weaknesses. 

When the 5DII came out, Canon basically created and opened up a total new market segment by introducing good quality video in their DSLR which at that time (8 years ago!!) was quite impressive considering the price as well.


With the 5DIV the video specs are already underwhelming and out-of-date compared to what competitors have and given the fact that this camera will be on the market for another 4 years until the successor comes out, is a big let down. With the hilarious mark up on the price for all these new " innovations" it's a slap in the face.

With the 5Ds and the 6D still in the market, I don't really understand the positioning of this new 5DIV and why they left out all those great video futures (better codec for less data, log, better external recording,...) 
Motion Jpeg creates huge video files. They could have at least added UHS-II or CFast so it becomes faster when transferring them, but no.

Another question I have about the new Dual Pixel Raw future is, what kind of fps we will get when using it. I hardly doubt that it will be the same 7fps as with the normal raw format. So it's just a gimmick and probably not interesting enough for wildlife photographers.

I think the dual pixel RAW will be great for wedding and portrait photographers as it allows minor correction of focus after the fact, like when focus grabs on the eye lashes rather than the pupils of the subject so I don't think it's a gimimmick although, as you say, probably not as useful for wildlife photographers. But then I don't think this camera is really targeting that audience although I'm sure many will use it for that very successfully. The downside of it is that it will require you to use DPP to get those benefits.

I don't really understand the positioning of this new 5DIV and why they left out all those great video [features]....

Not hard to understand: Canon is not going to provide advanced DSLR video features that could potentially threaten the market for their dedicated video cameras. Actually, I'm surprised they put 4K video in the 5D IV at all. They must have felt some pressure from other manufacturers, but responded not by trying to match or outdo competing cameras, but by including  just enough video features for marketing purposes.

John

At first glance, I was looking forward in the 5d4 expecting it to become a great upgrade of the 5d3. I have not been much engaged in video until now. Nevertheless, the scathing reviews E.J. has linked to above leave me with some disillusion and mixed feeling considering the price, at least. Good luck switching from stills to 4K video @1,74 crop during the shooting of a given scenery with your 24-70mm, - really a bummer Before diving deeper in the specs and limitations I thought that 30 MP would be a good compromise between the 5d3 and the demanding 50 MP of the 5dsR. Maybe the 1,74 crop instead of the 1.3 factor of the 1DxII was the price to pay for the higher resolution because of the limitations of processor power and/or heating issues. I'm no technical expert here. You can argue that the increased resolution for stills had the priority for the market. But if you subtract the pretty limited or even useless 4K option, you're evidentally better off with the 5DsR which is even 400 € cheaper here.
As to MOTION Jpeg  I read that the file size amounts to around 220 GB/hour  - simply not manageable. Even 5 min would require 18,3 GB. So you can only hope that there will be a firmware update introducing a real Codec and log profile.
On the plus side of the 5d4 you have the touch screen functionality and the dual pixel continous AF which looks amazing from what I've seen. I wish the 1Dx2 would get those features, too. If DRAM is useful for wildlife photography remains to be seen. Capture One or LR certainly will never support that option. Finally we have to see if the 5d4 offers better DR and normalized noise characteristics than the 5dsR. It certainly will be better than the 5d3 here. In summary it seems that the 5d4 is a mixed bag from today's viewpoint.

Wolfgang

Sebastian ErrasWhen the 5DII came out, Canon basically created and opened up a total new market segment by introducing good quality video in their DSLR which at that time (8 years ago!!) was quite impressive considering the price as well. wrote:
With the 5DIV the video specs are already underwhelming and out-of-date compared to what competitors have and given the fact that this camera will be on the market for another 4 years until the successor comes out, is a big let down. With the hilarious mark up on the price for all these new " innovations" it's a slap in the face.

With the 5Ds and the 6D still in the market, I don't really understand the positioning of this new 5DIV and why they left out all those great video futures (better codec for less data, log, better external recording,...) 
Motion Jpeg creates huge video files. They could have at least added UHS-II or CFast so it becomes faster when transferring them, but no.

Another question I have about the new Dual Pixel Raw future is, what kind of fps we will get when using it. I hardly doubt that it will be the same 7fps as with the normal raw format. So it's just a gimmick and probably not interesting enough for wildlife photographers.

The older 5D and 6D don't shoot 4K and don't have dual-pixel AF for continuous focus during video. I am not a video expert but I really like how my 1DX II tracks focus in LV mode, very smooth, fast and without hunting, something my 5D3 can't do.I am sure the new camera will produce excellent results in the right hands.


You don't need to hardly doubt, the spec says 7fps with DPRAW but the buffer capacity will reduce obviously because the files are larger. I think with a UDMA7 CF card it will still be good enough  

As a wildlife photographer myself, I think this camera will be great for wildlife and especially birds, the extra resolution plus all-pt AF at f/8 will make it a great long-distance shooter and  a nice complement  to my 1DX2. If the DPRAW focus post MA works for my application then even better. I am going to withhold judgement until I test it for myself.

As my A7r took a bashing this summer, including a short covering of ocean, I am now looking more seriously at a replacement. I was hoping the 5d4 would allow me not to have to use two sytems, a wild life camera when needed but that price.. wow. A7R2 looking more likely for now (and my Loxia will not fit the Canon )