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by SantaFeJoe on Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:05 am
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One of the protesters was killed:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon ... e-arrests/

http://www.kcci.com/national/oregon-pro ... d/37654910

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:10 am
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Sad that these radical Mormon folks from the southwest invaded Oregon and tried to import their ideas into the ultimate anti-Mormon State (founded in 1843 against the Mormon wars).
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by pleverington on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:14 pm
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Welllllll............

I have little knowledge on this subject so far so will not comment on specifics.

But 2 things....I totally abhorred what happened at Waco...Those people never needed to die...and children......those few in government around Janet Reno has all that blood on their shoulders. It was a bungled idiots fiasco.....lets hope for better here..


The second thing....and it was inevitable to happen...given a finite land space and the wish for wildlife to continue it's a given there would be clashes escalating to militant action someday over which is more important. Top that off with the fact people do not want change usually, then you have a line drawn in the sand. It's easy for me to see the opinions of Robert and all those who have decided to make Nature and wildlife their priority and be willing to fight for that (which includes me) even if blood be shed. Sounds crazy, but that is the way it will get more and more....

Unless of course there is a wake up call in the world today that wildlife has a right to exist. And we are NOT superior to wildlife even if we indeed can dominate, But let's be clear, we are superior to nothing on this planet. I don't care who says otherwise this is the truth...Only our insecurities and obese egos make us believe otherwise and archaic amalgamated philosophies from esoteric and eclectic religious dogma hold us still from seeing the truth. Today's world is nothing like the one 4-6 thousand years ago we must get over it. We must recognize and accept the challenges of saving what's left...
And I see militant uprising on the horizon not only for ranchers and such, but also for those who will fight them. It will happen....

Everyone will have to pick sides and sure someday people will look back and say gosh was violence necessary?? And the truth is YES....This is us, it's how we are, it's how it's always been, and it's how it will always be. Is it rational...hockey pucks no.....

Your seeing the beginning of this new struggle right now, whether you agree with me or not. This refuge take over is but a "testing" of the future. The battle over elephants and rhinos is beginning to come down to it also...

In Teddy's day people were not so outraged over the trophy hunter ....but now they sure are....think.... why is that???? Because our philosophy is not that of back then..

Unless we shed ourselves of irrelevant, archaic, childish, philosophy we are steamrolling to an inevitable brick wall where nature will fight back and win...But oh how we shall wreak havoc on it before we ourselves destruct........Think me wrong??? Then analyze what we have annihilated thus so far once more...The world looks very little to what it was a hundred...thousand years ago.....and despite all that we are it's not better in most ways..... it is in a few others as far a we are selfishly concerned..but now we are talking living versus survival....

So I hope that we will all catch it in time, but I doubt it...I think we are all on the cusp of environmental terrorism except it will be Revolutionaries to many. Good guys versus bad guys........


Pick a side.....




Paul
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by pleverington on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:40 pm
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Also ........say we didn't eat so much meat...???????
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by Mike in O on Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:17 pm
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A quick arm chair Sociological explanation from me (I am open to criticism).  Many areas in the US have a form of group speak that is acceptable norm and is tolerated.  The Pacific west and the the Northeast are bastions of liberal values and attract those kind of folks.  The South stills sees at its right to keep people of color from advancing with outright racist policies while the Southwest and Rocky mountain states are racist as well as strong believer in State Rights but with the Hollywood view of the rugged individual thrown in.  All this of course is gross generalization but I think will hold true for what is acceptable in these communities.  This invasion of Malheur by cowboy ethos from the Southwest (with local and national sympathizers) thinking that it would be tolerated in a cattle ranching community such as Burns mistook the values of the local buckaroos for the Hollywood values of the Southwestern cowboy (more in common with slave state Texas cowboys).  I will end this now before I insult everyone, LOL.
Here is a little article about the difference between cowboy and buckaroo
http://www.buckaroocountry.com/
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by E.J. Peiker on Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 pm
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Mike in O wrote:A quick arm chair Sociological explanation from me (I am open to criticism).  Many areas in the US have a form of group speak that is acceptable norm and is tolerated.  The Pacific west and the the Northeast are bastions of liberal values and attract those kind of folks.  The South stills sees at its right to keep people of color from advancing with outright racist policies while the Southwest and Rocky mountain states are racist as well as strong believer in State Rights but with the Hollywood view of the rugged individual thrown in.  All this of course is gross generalization but I think will hold true for what is acceptable in these communities.  This invasion of Malheur by cowboy ethos from the Southwest (with local and national sympathizers) thinking that it would be tolerated in a cattle ranching community such as Burns mistook the values of the local buckaroos for the Hollywood values of the Southwestern cowboy (more in common with slave state Texas cowboys).  I will end this now before I insult everyone, LOL.
Everybody I know down here in the SW think these guys are nuts as well and we aren't shedding too many tears for the Arizonan idiot that got himself shot. Folks here in the SW that support what these guys did are a small percentage of the whole - lets not generalize too much ;)
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by Blck-shouldered Kite on Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:36 pm
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Apparently, this is the very root of "ownership".  The American Aborigines in this case is (was) the Paiute people...or the Paiute.  
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=paiute+indians
On this page I like the Washington Post article.  But you can pick which one you want and then make up your own mind.  

Both BUNDY and the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT are WRONG.  

The federal government killed off and then evicted these American Aborigines, who have been living here for what.......1800 years?  Yup...a very, very long time.

It is really that simple.  My question is...what's new ?

The Federal government has too much control and that is because the American people are letting it happen.

 




https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=paiute+indians
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=paiute+indians
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=paiute+indians
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:18 pm
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Sometimes the lands are returned:

http://publichealthnm.org/2016/01/19/is ... tral-land/

http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/public/doc ... 031944.pdf

And other times, not. My ancestor was granted a land grant from the King of Spain around 1706 comprised of 46,000 acres. Under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848, these land grants were supposed to be honored. In 1892, the Court of Public Land Claims reduced the acreage to about 6,900 acres of pretty useless land which did not include the hills overlooking Santa Fe. These lands were probably claimed by the Native peoples before the Spanish claimed them.
It's called survival of the fittest. Here' just a tidbit:

http://newmexicohistory.org/places/jacona-grant

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:12 pm
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Interesting that this occupation of federal lands harks back to the Civil War
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... river_home
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by pleverington on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:36 pm
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I'm aligning with Brad's first post rather strongly. There is some judgmental going on here. These people are passionate about what they are doing and that man that was gunned down is guilty for mostly sticking up for what he believes in. Let's not forget this country has all along been created from people just like him and doing just as he and his others are doing. Armed rebellion is no stranger to the United States of America...Who here do not believe the founders of this country were not heros??  Yet they were all law breakers, in fact guilty of treason. There is no simple solution to things like this.. But these guys are not a bunch of racists yahoos looking for kicks. They have some legit grievances.

I didn't take the old man's comments about black people as racist, although certainly he could have been more tactful. His comment about slavery and being on food stamps resonated to my mind and my experience, but oh how the rest of the world so overreacts these days if any white person comments in an small way about anything other than in political correctness parameters. He is not a racist. In fact, his black bodyguard will tell you that and he also says what I am saying that the rest of the world is putting things out of context. What I truly believe he was trying to say was  how much better was the black man now then in slavery days, IF, he was still corralled in low income ghettos, traumatized by stigma, suffering the endless round trip of a destroyed and non functional family, subjected to endless exposure of crime and drugs and violence...... Its still with us, it's still a reality.......I know, I know, we have a black president now so all is well right??? NOT!!!  Blacks are 14% of US population yet represent 60 % of the prison population....To this day most Americans blame it on their race...regardless of whether they want to admit it or not....


No old man Bundy is not a racists...if anything he is only guilty of being a simple man.....which I not only can relate to, but would also say I embrace as a personal philosophy....He was simply trying to say what I have known for a long time......If you want to elevate the black man then look upon him as an equal.....How many of you live in a black neighborhood???  See ...you have little exposure...little consciousness of the black people...similar to the fact that if one never goes out into the wild with a camera, one has little consciousness of the animal lives that live within. Same kind of thing....

The worst way to solve this problem believe is with guns and military style force....

Please look at these videos and make an assessment for yourself....


http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2014/04/26 ... mon-bundy/





Paul
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:51 pm
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Something recently posted:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /79446598/

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:47 pm
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Operations are starting for remaining 4, news media are being moved out of the area.  Our local police have been asked by the FBI to conduct the investigation on the fatality.
edit:  video from a plane is being put on the FBI utube channel showing the roadblock and what transpired.  An FBI agent was almost killed at the stop as Bundy plowed into the snow bank.
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:12 pm
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Here's a bit more:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... ws_co.html

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:15 pm
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https://mobile.twitter.com/FBIPortland? ... wsrc%5Etfw

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by SantaFeJoe on Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:48 am
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Paul
Here is a viewpoint that is much counter to yours. Read with an open mind:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 36857.html

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:47 pm
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SantaFeJoe wrote:Paul
Here is a viewpoint that is much counter to yours. Read with an open mind:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 36857.html

Joe
Interesting viewpoint but somewhat lacking in facts.  This wasn't a takeover by Oregonians but outside militants, mostly from the Southwest and Rocky Mtn. states (though obviously their message resonates with some locals).  True on the surface about Oregon not allowing Blacks from owning property (repealed around 1950 but ignored in reality) that was in the original state constitution.  Oregon admitted to the Union in 1859 when the agreement between the States said for every free state admitted, a corresponding slave state would be brought into the Union.  Oregon's admittance upset the balance and the answer was to put into the constitution a no black clause (by the way, this precipitated the Civil War).  Oregon fought on the antislavery side of the War.  My great, great, great grandfather wrote the document (also the California's) and both States fought on the Union side.
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by SantaFeJoe on Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:45 pm
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Couldn't help but post this light-hearted look at this event:

http://www.skeptical-science.com/humor/ ... yallqaeda/

http://www.google.com/search?q=%23yallq ... 24&bih=690

Sorry if you don't see the humor!

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:13 pm
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Got a good laugh...just goes to show what happens when civics is taken out of the curriculums in high schools.
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by pleverington on Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:12 pm
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SantaFeJoe wrote:Paul
Here is a viewpoint that is much counter to yours. Read with an open mind:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 36857.html

Joe
Joe the article addresses a whole nuther set  of issues from what my points made are...Ones that are not relevant to the issues in this thread....
Paul Leverington
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