Can't compute...

I'm at the age where... I worry less and less about how I say or even what I say. But this site has me beyond puzzled. I see favoritism and clicks abound. 
I wanted to say there is no rhyme or reason for the pics or ones held upon the pedestal but that would be incorrect. I surely cannot be the only one who sees this or feels this way. Maybe I'm just the one who is brave, or stupid enough to say it out loud. It's a shame the photo world is like this. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside for a more well known one.

Had to get that off my chest.

Some subjects are more popular than others. Some styles are more popular than others. Some people are more popular than others. Such is life.

Oh I hear ya... but the things I've seen here remind me of highschool. It's just a shame because so many more here missed recognition on account of it.

As I said just venting. Seeing as this is public and I paid.

Different strokes for different folks.

I am not a big fan of the super close tight shots of large raptors and such birds. I prefer shots that show more large portions of the landscape and surroundings. Even if the bird is relatively small. But it shows the birds home and give someone the visual context of where the bird lives.

But Alan Murphy and some of the other guys here have put up some shots that are just jawdropping. You can argue favoritism towards a style or person but if the shot is technically excellent and something maybe we just don't see that often, you gotta give props.

Now I just gotta figure out who to suck up to for one of my pics to be a Editors pic? EJ? Greg?

Rhorst your obviously someone who believes and knows how to be honest with themselves and others. I am not sure what your meaning as far as favoritism and clicks are though. In fact the editors picks to me signal all kinds of messages having nothing to do with favoritism and clicks. EJ is one editor and although I have never met him I can assure you he is sincere and committed. He is definitely not a lap dog or in anyones pocket. He speaks his mind with every bit of clarity and honesty that a person can even be expected to do, even under assault of many biases that are out there now. Greg downing is staunch in his believes and sensitivity and is not reluctant to defend these things. Greg Basco is simply the purest here. Case closed. I don't get your point. But i also do not negate your point. Do this...give reference and examples. I can assure you your perspective is not only valid, but maybe paramount to change. On the other hand, if you don't talk to us, it gets lost. Is it time for a fresh look to our photography?? Be honest...I think so in many ways, but that's just me.. Did you catch EJ's article about personal evolution and shooting style??

I like your post and please don't be shy or hesitate about speaking your mind.

The site is going numb lately as people seem to have dropped off. But what should this tell us?

Paul

RHorst wrote: But this site has me beyond puzzled. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside 

I wouldn't exactly say pushed aside, but many are overlooked. For example:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243898

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243774

The second one is a first time post! Where are the moderators to welcome a new member????? I've noticed that the comments are getting to be fewer, even though the work is getting better. Not all photos will be perfect technically, but many capture rare events and deserve note by other members. I hope we are not becoming so rigid that only the very best are commented on!

Joe

SantaFeJoe wrote:

RHorst wrote: But this site has me beyond puzzled. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside 

... Not all photos will be perfect technically, but many capture rare events and deserve note by other members...

Many can make a technically perfect image (with all the tech we have these days). but few can make one that also has content. Like an owl shot I've seen lately. It's a technically perfect shot, but it's simply another, IMO, boring bird-on-a-stick-with-empty-background shot that millions of photogs out there have done it again, again, and again.

Paul,

Thank you for being candid and honest as well. I'm not going to name names or probably give examples as that would only subject me to be more of an outcast and solicit negativity upon me or my photo's. It appears that some others have parallel feelings or have noticed similar issues. This site has some very talented photographers or at least some marvelous photo's that were made or captured. However, the achilles heel is that only one or two persons are making judgement. That judgement and decision made is too personally driven. Too narrow of a spectrum. Too subject to a personal preference. I was drawn here because I thought there was a potential for true interaction and I could solicit and gain insight to find avenues of better likability of what I was doing. Some of my stuff drew much more favorable attention from an enormously larger audience on a several other sites. I have also seen photo's here that received the same attention and many times more elsewhere but were overlooked here. It's my opinion that this site could be beneficial, helpful and rewarding to members and visitors here but it is too one sided in a sense. As poster(s) above mentioned or eluded too as I did earlier. There is an unusual feel here now and if you are new or a new poster there is this highschool like groupie or clickish feeling. A new person won't even get as much as a "hey thanks for being here" or even a "welcome" .. I'm rambling but maybe it is understaffed and perhaps grew too fast for the ones in control.. now we are seeing a tidal effect. It wants to be a big sight that is a barometer for great photography but it's driven by one driver and co-pilot in a sense. Art needs to be subject to opinions from a wider spectrum to gain beneficial feedback to it's creator. Again, all this is my take on it.

SantaFeJoe wrote:

RHorst wrote: But this site has me beyond puzzled. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside 

I wouldn't exactly say pushed aside, but many are overlooked. For example:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243898

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243774

The second one is a first time post! Where are the moderators to welcome a new member????? I've noticed that the comments are getting to be fewer, even though the work is getting better. Not all photos will be perfect technically, but many capture rare events and deserve note by other members. I hope we are not becoming so rigid that only the very best are commented on!

Joe

Joe,

Thanks for pointing out the oversight. For several weeks early this year I made a point to offer at least a brief comment for each new post, and welcoming new members. Unfortunately I haven't been able to do that for quite a while due to demands my "real" job, but I'll try to do better.

Gary

RHorst wrote:...Art needs to be subject to opinions from a wider spectrum to gain beneficial feedback to it's creator...

Richard,

A bit of clarification --- although the final decision on the structure and content of Editors Picks belongs to Greg Downing, moderators from the individual galleries can and do provide nominations for EP selection. The site not long ago celebrated it's tenth anniversary, and it's still a popular destination for photographers who joined at the beginning of the site, and want to continue to improve their craft. Comments of contributors in critiquing images offer an opportunity for a helpful friendly interaction to that end, so please continue to offer constructive suggestions.

Best regards,
Gary

SantaFeJoe wrote:

RHorst wrote: But this site has me beyond puzzled. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside 

I wouldn't exactly say pushed aside, but many are overlooked. For example:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243898

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243774

The second one is a first time post! Where are the moderators to welcome a new member????? I've noticed that the comments are getting to be fewer, even though the work is getting better. Not all photos will be perfect technically, but many capture rare events and deserve note by other members. I hope we are not becoming so rigid that only the very best are commented on!

Joe

This is one of those topics that rarely surfaces as a forum post but is silently acknowledged. Something came to a boil about a year or two ago and a long heated thread resulted (remember the 2 yellow birds in mid-air not picked in favour of a northern hawk owl which in turn had not been picked numerous times in the past (by the same author). There's always more going on than the image itself is the point (duh).  Oh, that was a heated thread. 


Now, I am seldom in the bird galleries forum but from the times I have visited, I have noticed something. No matter how nice JNadler's photos are, I cannot recall even one time, not even one, when his images were picked, at least not in recent years anyways (keep in mind, I am seldom in that forum so forgive me if I am mistaken).  When I observe that, naturally I'm thinking there is a backstory here. Something is happening behind the scenes we are not privy to. Something happened in the past. Again, my point is that when it comes to picks it is more than just the image (politics, etc.).  This is one reason why I never pay much attention to these things.  Since we're all being brave here

I know one thing, the images that have been picked are all very good to awesome.  I have no idea of any favoritism and the ilk so I won't make comment.

In today's digital age it seems to me the eyes and minds of the world are getting rather saturated with technically great stuff. What was once, (and only that was about ten years ago), a great image is now rather routine. I have been a proponent of compositionally based images since the get go. Has a lot to do with my upbringing I suppose under the tutelage of an artistic mother, but all great painters use full compositional techniques to create EVOCATIVE images. Sorry for the caps..but it's important. But you know,..... images with a background that actually is a contributing member of the group of other things that go into creating images--a player not just a prop.  A lot of people scoffed at my thoughts in the past, but I think now we are witnessing a death of the bird on stick and blurry background image which I have always believed to be just somewhere between a snapshot or document image, and a true evocative artistic image. And I don't know about anyone else, but my emotions seem to be the very source of life's experience for me. Although EJ's recent article was very brief about it, I see a lot of folks rethinking how they shoot. Everyone I'm sure has their own personal pace and direction when it comes to the evolution of their photography, but I think we are in a lull, dare I say a rut, ...till we pull out of it and realize we have been off mark as far as creating that artful, evocative, compositionally based image. And if you study it seriously there is so much more than what's ever been discussed here on the subject. Laughably, someone remarked to me once, that the compositional techniques of the old masters was outdated and no longer valid...How do you get past that kind of misplaced logic?? As if our very language of English is also out of date would be as valid a statement..

Anyways, not to ramble on too much, but the images that seem to evoke the most oou la la and responsive commentary in the last few years are the ones that utilize more than just simple two dimensional comps and deliver up much more evocative scenes that allow the viewer to feel as if they are there in the picture..or would at least like to be in the picture. The techniques of creating such images is a well worn path. Just sayin.....


Paul

Hi John,

Thanks for the post and the candor. I can certainly see where you are coming from and share some of your frustration.

Let me make a few points and observations here.

1. For 10 years the same issues have been discussed. My feeling is that, aside from the moderators, there is not much one can do to change posting habits and which images become popular and which get ignored. This is an open free community and there are tens of thousands of visitors each week.

2. Commenting has always been up and down - sometimes as post numbers go up comments go down. We can't force comments or enforce a quota. See last sentence of #1 above.

3. Editor's Picks - are NOMINATED by moderators and then all final picks are made my me personally. This is NOT a popularity contest it is simply what images are nominated and chosen as our personal favorites. I often pick images that are not nominated and don't always pick an image that is nominated. So you can say they are "my personal" favorites as the "Editor" but there is always some help in picking via the mods.

SIDE NOTE: P.S. With respect to OntPhoto's story about the two yellow birds. Yes it got awfully heated but there was ZERO basis for the discussion in the first place - it was RIDICULOUS. In the end the image did not get picked (by me) but again the picks are MY favorites so I hardly see ANY relevance to complaining that ANY particular image was not chosen. I don't care how good YOU think it is. FWIW the image in discussion was A FABRICATION in the end and was not a straight shot. Hmmm go figure.

4. Traffic for specialty sites has been dwindling somewhat since the age of Facebook and Twitter and G+ - the sharing of images online has now become VERY fragmented.

5. NSN has the BEST CHANCE to continue as a great resource for nature photographers in large part due to the fact that the people running it are not always spewing their own agenda in the forums and galleries and are not preaching "their way or the highway" sort of notions. You see this on some other sites but NSN is always opening and welcoming to new members, new techniques and differing styles.

6. The fact that you spoke out is what everyone needs to do. This is a community. Without COMMINIcation the site would never evolve or change. If folks walk away when they are discontent with the site then their contribution was less about the community and more about them.

7. Moderators: I realize that many of our currently listed "moderators" do next to nothing. Rest assured they will be de-listed and others will be brought in who have time to contribute. There has always been a bit of a turn over as it's a volunteer job and not everyone has the time long term. We DO appreciate everything our mods do, present and past, and there isn't a single one who did not contribute a considerable amount of their time to the site and to the community. We should all be thanking them.

This is for everyone:

If folks do nothing to contribute or change the culture then they have no place to criticize. Let's be a community - let's share, be open, honest, don't run away when you don't like something or someone, don't hold your breath when you should be speaking up. This is YOUR site - let us know what you want to get out of of and start helping as a community member making it a better site.

I personally still feel that NSN is unmatched by any other similar site. But we can do better.

Thank you!

Speaking outloud.... communicating the noise running though my grey matter.

For me personally I use this (as well as others) to better/use as a barometer, my photography. When one or 3 or 4 people are "judging" err picking photo's, that only tells me what they like or their values and preferences.

Preface: I don't want to see this place become "pixoto like" but... a gallery of options for choosen photo's and a short voting period would be (for me) awesome...

We should be clear that the editors picks are simply one tiny aspect of the site to feature photography. The rest of the forums galleries etc. were never designed to be any sort of contest involving voting ratings or anything that could lead to a popularity contest or any thing of the sort and making it such would simply water down the website and completely move away from its intended purpose which is sharing learning etc.

Greg Downing wrote: 
6. The fact that you spoke out is what everyone needs to do. This is a community. Without COMMINIcation the site would never evolve or change. If folks walk away when they are discontent with the site then their contribution was less about the community and more about them.

 

I disagree with that point Greg. All too often the people who are discontented (in not just the NSN community) have tried to communicate their viewpoints only to be effectively not listened to by lack of response or lack of agreement. Then they walk away because there is very little or no "co" in the co-mmunity. The point is - discontented folks often have tried to belong but felt left out and then they left because they didn't feel like they had a part in the community. It can't be forced.

I have sadly watched as a newcomer received very little help when they asked a technical or equipment question that has been addressed before. That fortunately hasn't happened to me. But if we want this community to stay alive and fresh, then some effort needs to consistently be given to respond to newcomers. Which of course is an act of inclusiveness. And yes I see that effort applied at times, but I also see it left hanging at other times.

Robert

SantaFeJoe wrote:

RHorst wrote: But this site has me beyond puzzled. I've seen so many good ones get pushed aside 

I wouldn't exactly say pushed aside, but many are overlooked. For example:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243898

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... 3&t=243774

I'll try and give a different perspective.  I do not post much in the galleries, but on this site and on others where I have posted, I often get comments that my image needs sharpening.  What I have come to learn is that I have a high MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) monitor.  I make my images sharp with no ringing in the image data file.  But many monitors have lower MTF and the same image that looks incredibly sharp on my monitor looks soft on another (I'm talking all LCD monitors).  The images above, especially the red kingfisher (second link), are slightly soft.  I then looked at some of the editors picks here, and saw beautiful images except they had what I consider significant and detracting ringing from over processing.  Perhaps some people making the choices have low MTF monitors and that impacts perceptions.

Having said that, I do not see a simple solution.  Just like the general public, and perhaps some participants here, have monitors that are not color calibrated, the different MTF response of monitors means there is no way one can make a great photo appear with similar sharpness and color on all screens to all viewers.

Roger

"When one or 3 or 4 people are "judging" err picking photos, that only tells me what they like or their values or preferences."

But isn't that the nature of judging contests. That's why judges are asked to be judges. People respect their abilities and want to know what they like i.e., their preferences. The Pulitzers are judged and not everyone agrees with the picks.

Robert wrote:

Greg Downing wrote: 
6. The fact that you spoke out is what everyone needs to do. This is a community. Without COMMINIcation the site would never evolve or change. If folks walk away when they are discontent with the site then their contribution was less about the community and more about them.

 

I disagree with that point Greg. All too often the people who are discontented (in not just the NSN community) have tried to communicate their viewpoints only to be effectively not listened to by lack of response or lack of agreement. Then they walk away because there is very little or no "co" in the co-mmunity. The point is - discontented folks often have tried to belong but felt left out and then they left because they didn't feel like they had a part in the community. It can't be forced.

I have sadly watched as a newcomer received very little help when they asked a technical or equipment question that has been addressed before. That fortunately hasn't happened to me. But if we want this community to stay alive and fresh, then some effort needs to consistently be given to respond to newcomers. Which of course is an act of inclusiveness. And yes I see that effort applied at times, but I also see it left hanging at other times.

Robert

Lack or response and lack of agreement are very different. I don't think folks expressing their viewpoints have ever really had a lack of response. Of course we can't always agree on everything. That's part of what makes us all different and, in my view, adds to the value of the community as a whole. It's funny but some of the most outspoken that have sometimes stormed off in discontent from the site have come back because they missed the site and the people. Perhaps because they know that in the end we are not as rigid in our site administration and overall mission as some might think and that we are a friendly and useful community.

With respect to your second point I would like to suggest that if anyone watching sees someone literally get ignored or not get help that they ask for, that they speak up and say something to EJ, myself, Gary, Royce or any of the other person on the site. In the meantime we're going to be working with our mods to see if we can't find a better system of recognizing newcomers and those posting images who aren't getting as much help as they could. There are a lot of posts each day and it's easy to miss something if you're not on top of it.

When it comes to less comments on photos that are not stellar often times a photo that might need some technical help gets it from on or two people and others don't want to beat the point to death since it's critical and not accolades. I think that is human nature. As far as questions in the technical forums I can't ever think of seeing a question go completely unanswered. There has certainly been ebb and flow in the forums and galleries over the years but unless I'm missing something everyone has been openly included and welcomed.

A larger question, from my POV is, do we need appreciation? Do we need people to look at our images and go 'wow', does endorsement by the editors of a pro website or our peers on other forums matter so much? 

For an amateur, it may be the fulfillment of a long-held desire -  approval by his betters. For a pro, it probably makes no difference because the readers of this forum are not going to be his clients anyway.

In any case, if you ask for an opinion you need to be prepared for criticism, if you ask for acceptance, you need to be prepared for rejection. That's just the nature of the beast.

 I cannot comment on the veracity of the 'bias' mentioned in this thread. Without specific examples I doubt anybody could and I believe beauty truly lies in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone here is so talented and the pictures are all technically perfect, so the 'appeal' of an individual image is somewhat intangible and therefore prone to the reviewer's personal bias if you will.

Is there a problem with a 'pilot and co-pilot' system? Perhaps, but how else do you go about monitoring all that is submitted? It would be a laborious process indeed if there was a committee that decided which images belonged in the  'Editors' pick' category.

I do applaud the courage of the OP in starting this thread. The written word is bereft of the phonetic (and facial) expression that accompanies human speech which often mitigates even harsh language. No such luck on the net which strips every response of the humanity it deserves, letting the reader perceive what may not even be the intention of the writer. No wonder that feathers are ruffled so easily and affronts taken when none may have been offered. In the 20 plus years since  my Usenet days I've seen so many flame wars which could easily have been avoided had the people involved been talking in person.

Pradeep