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by Bill Chambers on Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:04 am
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Based on some of the glowing recommendations I've read on this forum I recently purchased AIClear.  I like the noise reduction capability a great deal, but I'm not as thrilled with the sharpening.  It seems to oversharpen IMHO.  I use Capture One Pro 12 for RAW conversion and I also apply a small amount of capture sharpening in C1 and then open it in CS6, then use AIClear first thing in my workflow.

My question:  Is AIClear just a combination of Topaz noise reduction and Topaz sharpening packed into one package, or is it a completely application in it's own right?  In other words, will I get the same noise reduction quality if I just use the Topaz noise reduction option in Studio without using any sharpening?  I really prefer doing the sharpening as my final step and sharpen for whatever size and application the image will be used for (web, print, etc.)

Thanks in advance!
Bill
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by signgrap on Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:06 am
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I believe that Topaz recommends that NO sharpening be done prior to using AI Clear.
I also use C1-12 Pro and AI Clear and have noticed the same over-sharpening.  My fix is to do no sharpening of any kind in C1, remember C1 applies sharpening by default to all images, so any capture sharpening you do is in addition to the default sharpening that C1 applies automatically.  If I understand correctly AI Clear is a brand new app using artificial intelligence to determine and differentiate between what is noise and detail. If you can believe the marketing this is a completely new app that is different from Topaz's Reduce Noise. Do these apps share some protocols probably but I don't know. I’m new to Topaz but from all the tutorials I’ve viewed from long time Topaz users there seems to be a consensus that AI Clear is new and unique compared to prior Topaz noise reduction apps. Also remember that you set AI Clear to the lowest sharpening setting to keep sharpening to a minimum.

BTW, I have found that when I processed C1 converted images in PS, a number of years prior to the introduction of AI Clear, I also had over-sharpening problems when using apps/filters within PS that also applied some sharpening as part of their workflow. It was at this time I realized I had to reduce or eliminate sharpening in C1 in order to prevent oversharpening.
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by E.J. Peiker on Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:30 am
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Dick is correct. It is not a combo of those two tools, it actually uses AI code to try to recognize the difference between subject and background, texture and smooth surfaces and it is very good at that. Dick is also correct that you would not use as much sharpening, specifically a camera that does not have an AA filter should receive very little capture sharpening if any at all during the RAW conversion process. A camera with an AA filter can still stand a bit but about half of what you used to do.

As for Dick's comment about capture One default sharpening, in general is uses 180, 1, 1, 0 as the sharpening parameters for cameras with an AA filter and 180, 0.8, 1, 0 for cameras without one. I recommend turning them all down significantly and use 120, 1, 1, 0 for cameras with an AA filter and 100, 0.8, 1 0 for cameras with an AA filter. C1P's capture sharpening is way too aggressive. You can easily set up these new parameters as defaults for each of your cameras and it will automatically apply those.
 

by Ed Cordes on Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:36 pm
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I have been very happy with AI Clear. I have all sharpening and noise reduction in Lightroom turned completely off. 99% of my "capture or pre-sharpening" is accomplished in AI Clear. The other 1% I find I like the capture sharpening mode in PK Sharpener. I do notice that during the preview of AI Clear the sharpening sometimes appears too much, but when I export the file to Photoshop it is, most of the time, very good. This is why I still occasionally use the pre-sharpening in PK Sharpener. If the AI Clear result looks too harsh I go back to my old work flow. Again, I rarely find the AI Clear result is too harsh.
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by E.J. Peiker on Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:46 pm
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Ed Cordes wrote:I have been very happy with AI Clear.  I have all sharpening and noise reduction in Lightroom turned completely off.  99% of my "capture or pre-sharpening" is accomplished in AI Clear.  The other 1% I find I like the capture sharpening mode in PK Sharpener.  I do notice that during the preview of AI Clear the sharpening sometimes appears too much, but when I export the file to Photoshop it is, most of the time, very good.  This is why I still occasionally use the pre-sharpening in PK Sharpener.  If the AI Clear result looks too harsh I go back to my old work flow.  Again, I rarely find the AI Clear result is too harsh.
Aha, yes, that happens if you already have AI Clear active when you enter Studio.  Simply clicking the down arrow to open the dialogs for AI Clear, immediately triggers a proper rendering.  If that is what is being referred to as Oversharpening, it's an interface choice they made to speed up on-screen rendering, but if you actually want to see what's going on, you have to expand the AI Clear dialog.  This does not happen if AI Clear wasn't already active in Topaz Studio when you enter Studio.
 

by Bruce Sherman on Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm
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I have noticed the same "over-sharpening" with AI Clear on some images. One way I have found to "fix" this is open the raw file, create a duplicate layer, and then do AI Clear. I then will adjust the opacity of the duplicate layer to get the look I want.
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by Bill Chambers on Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:10 pm
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E.J. Peiker wrote:As for Dick's comment about capture One default sharpening, in general is uses 180, 1, 1, 0 as the sharpening parameters for cameras with an AA filter and 180, 0.8, 1, 0 for cameras without one.  I recommend turning them all down significantly and use 120, 1, 1, 0 for cameras with an AA filter and 100, 0.8, 1 0 for cameras with an AA filter.  C1P's capture sharpening is way too aggressive.  
I actually disabled all sharpening on C1 in the Adjustments area of the Process Recipe and still thought the sharpening done by AIClear to be excessive.  I've always been told that sharpening (except for capture sharpening) should be left for last and then sharpen for the size being printed or shared on the web.  Is this not correct?
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by Bill Chambers on Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:12 pm
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Bruce Sherman wrote:I have noticed the same "over-sharpening" with AI Clear on some images. One way I have found to "fix" this is open the raw file, create a duplicate layer, and then do AI Clear. I then will adjust the opacity of the duplicate layer to get the look I want.
Thanks Bruce, that sounds like a great solution as long as the noise doesn't become too objectionable as you reduce the sharpening.  I will try it and see.
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by E.J. Peiker on Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:23 pm
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Here's a simple way to deal with this.  Before entering Topaz Studio from inside Photoshop, create a duplicate layer, then go into Studio, apply AI Clear and exit.  AI clear is applied to the duplicate layer and then you can simply adjust the opacity of that layer.
 

by E.J. Peiker on Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:01 am
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Oh, almost forgot, also realize there is an Opacity slider in Studio for every tool including AI Clear. That's an easy way to tone down the effect.
 

by Bill Chambers on Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:12 pm
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Thanks E.J.
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by Royce Howland on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:02 am
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I too have found C1's default sharpening to be too strong for my taste. Same in the Adobe apps. Generally speaking I do an extremely light touch of sharpening during raw conversion, possibly none at all. I also try to make sure that any needed noise reduction happens before sharpening, of course. Raw converters are generally smart about sequencing these two processes so that you're not putting sharpening on top of noise, then trying to reduce noise. But being the obsessive type that I am, when I control it manually then I'm more sure it's happening the way I want. :)

I do most of my sharpening towards the end of the "creative" stages of image development, specifically after most of my heavy lifting of tonal edits are done. That includes anything that would affect micro contrast (contrast within a radius of 3 px or less), local contrast (aka "structure" or "clarity", impacting contrast in a range of say 50 - 200 px) or global contrast (image black point, white point, grey point). I don't want to sharpen early and then pile other tonal moves on top. Instead I get the image tonality where I want it, then sharpen to bring acuity up to the extent necessary.

I'll then fine tune sharpening with a final pass once I resize for output scale, whether a small file for the web, a large file for print, or whatever. For print I usually let Qimage handle post-scaling sharpening for me, but in some special or extreme cases I control it manually.

I haven't tried AI Clear yet, though it's on my list for a good, close look. In general I like what Topaz is doing with their new generation of filters. AI Gigapixel has really produced some good results on large prints that I thought were going to be hopeless. There's a limit on what software can do if you don't give it enough to work with, but Topaz is finding ways to get at whatever marginal quality is in a file.
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