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I don't think the ID is in question here but for what it's worth I shared this image with my friend Brian Wheeler who is one of the top raptor people in the country and also an author of 5 of the best North American Raptor ID books and he not only id'd it as a first year Sharp-shinned but a male.

Robert Grove wrote:Ok then one of you explain why the Buteo 's Hybridize and Accipiters do not Hybridize, since you are making a distinction in "Hawks". To me they are hawks . . .

If they were identical, they'd be the same species. They aren't. They're different species with all sorts of different behaviors. To say that one hawk must behave exactly like all other hawks is like saying an LCD monitor must be as heavy as a CRT, because after all they're both monitors!

By the way, the hybrid I want on my life list is a Swansons x Sharp shine. There's got to be one somewhere, right? Some hawks hybridize, so all must, and in every possible combination, including that one and also American Kestrel x Gyrfalcon.

"Hawk" is a common term for birds with similar attributes. The fact that they are further divided into Falcons, Accipiters, Buteos, etc. denotes that they have particular habits, prey preferences, methods of hunting, and fill different niches.

If raptor identification was so simple there wouldn't be a need for the hundreds of volumes written on the subject.

Cheers,

Jim

Cliff Redtail hawks are not identical , yet known as the same species , they have hybridized according to some. Species do mix so your point is not valid to me.
Other animals and even fish do it , so the possibilities are there that cannot be denied as I see it.
some hybridize mainly to overlapping territories . I guess if they dont find a suitable mate they settle for second best sometimes.

Im learning more about hawks , and they are interesting . I came across a very interesting Hawk ? Or is it an Owl? Its called and "Owlhawk" It resembles two very different species . I think its classified as an Owl ,but it looks so much like a Hawk as well . Makes one wonder about how that species came about? So maybe you may yet get your wish Cliff!

Robert,

(1) Humans and rats are both living things. (2) Living things have been known to hybridize. (3) Human x rat hybrids walk among us (and may even have acheived high political office). You agree, right? My logic is unassailable.

Hi Guys, this is indeed an interesting thread. My wife and I are regular partisipants at Hawk Cliff hawk watch site, my wife Su is one of the more experienced people at hawk identification and along with other highly experienced watchers I often hear comments like, " it's a coop, no its a shin , or is it a male Gos", then someone says put a scope on that bird and see how the head sticks out and look at that tail, is it round or square, but it could be in molt yeah but its very streaky like a male Gos, then it is either called a coop or a shin or or a Gos, or it is reported as an unidentified acciipter.
We have found identifying hawks under certain lighting conditions can be very difficult even for the very experienced birder. I just bought my wife a book called " Hawks from every angle" by Jerry Liguori, what an excellent guide.I would recommend this book to the less experienced hawk watchers.

I would like to visit Robert's comments again. I don't know if it is possible for the accipiters to cross breed. It would be impossible to tell without having the bird in the hand and doing DNA tests. The term "hawk" is a human developed shortform not a scientific species.

Someone who is banding a bird that looks like a Coopers but is the size of a small male Sharpie might make the connection to cross-breeding but apparently that hasn't happened yet.

It is my understanding that certain colours of Red-tailed hawks occur geographically and are likely evolutionary adaptations to their environmental conditions and not necessarily a result of cross-breeding. A Great Horned Owl was discovered on Manitoulin Island this year that is the Snyder's race. That is the sub-species of the great-horned that breeds from northern Ontario from near the Manitoba border eastward to the Quebec border, south to about Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie and North Bay. It doesn't mean that the bird cross-bred with another owl species. See the following link for the explanation by Jean Iron and Ron Pittaway.

http://www.pbase.com/image/58758255

Eleanor, the accipiters can be hybridized but I have not seen any documented cases of this in the wild. A goshawk/coopers hawk hybrid was made by a breeder a number of years ago via artificial insemination and the bird was healthy and looked more like a coopers than a gos. I think in many cases hybridization can occur between species of the same genus (for example many hybrids have been made from the genus falco, a gyrfalcon and peregrine, prairie falcon and a merlin, no kestrels and gyrs that I know of so far) There has also been a cross between a harris hawk (parabuteo unicinctus) and a ferruginous hawk (buteo regalis). I do not know of any crosses that are not "genus" linked. In most cases the female of the cross will lay infertile eggs or some <5% will actually hatch. However, the male does have viable sperm and thus you can create a second generation back into the original species thus creating a 3/4 gyrfalcon and 1/4 peregrine falcon. Falconers will do this to create what is known as "hybrid vigor" which basically means the hybrid falcons are more resistant to disease and some tend to be stronger. The mule (cross between a donkey and a horse) is a very good example of hybrid vigor.

While there have been documented cases of a couple of the large buteos hybridizing in the wild, and even more in captivity, this is very very rare. A supposed Cooper's Hawk x Northern Goshawk was recorded in the wild more than 50 years ago. I haven't heard of any supposed cases since then and without doing some major digging I don't know how well documented this bird was. We know so much more about identification now that it very well could have been a case of mistaken ID. Cooper's Hawk has also hybridized with Harris' Hawk in captivity. This combination I find remarkably interesting as the two are in separate genera and have very different habits and behaviours.

Given the body of evidence, I would think that hybrid Cooper's x Sharp-shinned Hawks probably do occur in the wild, though I would expect them to be very rare and very easily overlooked by most observers.

Another thing to keep in mind, these sorts of things are most likely to happen on the fringes of a specie's range than where there is broad overlap.

Cliff how could I disagree ? origin of the rat race .

I read that Coopers and sharp shine hawks can be difficult to ID one from another , and a reason could be that they are Hybridizing , how would people know that they have been Hybriding or not if they are having a hard time to begin with ? just between the 2 species ? And them being so close to size,etc, and within territories , makes it all very possible. Maybe Hybridizing is the root of the whole problem in getting a correct ID on the 2 species! Just a thought , Im not claiming it as facts , but I see it is possible as the evidence seems to be appearing.

Another thought I have is that perhaps subspecies are just Hybrids after all?

Robert, I think this is most likely evolutionary changes due to environment / separation rather than them hybridizing towards 1 species. There are many documented cases of this in nature and variations from even small differences in environment.

It seems like you are trying to push through a hybridization agenda without many details / examples to support it. Birds in the same Genus / Species are going to have common traits and that can make ID difficult. Thats why its nice to have a forum to work out the ID. I hope we don't have a conspiracy theory in the works about all birds hybridizing into 1 species.

Robert,

See if you can find a copy of Raptors of Western North America and its sister text Raptors of Eastern North America both by Brian K. Wheeler. They are probably the best guides to the North American Hawks ever written. Raptors exhibit extreme variation by age and sex. This will help you understand the complexities of raptor identification. It goes into great detail about Anatomy, Plumage, Molt, Perching and Flying Attitudes and details indepth species accounts.

Enjoy how he presents this material in an easy to read and consistent format.

Jim

Robert Grove wrote:Hi Jim ! I dont know much about hawks , but I do know that many of them are Hybreds ,Ive seen some around here that I had a hard time to ID, thats when I read that there is cross breeding. So when I hear of so called experts that can not ID a bird . It makes me wonder maybe they are Hybreds ! The above analisis is not 100% sure by all of the experts , if that is what they are.
If I ask if my dog is a poodle , I expect them to tell me if they are experts , yes or no, not "probley" or "I would go with" that would make me laugh if they bred Poodles for a living and gave me an answer like that!

I think this resolves the question if this is or is not. With all the experts we have here why continue to question their opinion. I don't get it.

I found some information that should help us all understand abit more . Its an interesting read on Wikipedia about the forms of hybrids . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_hybrid At the bottom section you can find a link to 2,129 hybrid birds with 1,802 references , a free search on birds that have Hybridized with other species . You will be amazed . I just punched in hawk and 18 search results came up 6 captive hybrid reports and 12 in nature . Hybrid birds are just a matter of fact , and I really dont know just how much they have Hybridized in the wild , but they have and its apart of nature . And a good reason for it. I do appreciate good information , thanks for the tips on books etc , Jim
Also No one has really explained to me about Hybridisation in the wild on this form, except that most seem not believe that it can even happen , so look at these references and then you will see that yes it does happen . Therefore my original post was very possible .

Robert, While anything (almost) is possible, it is just very unlikely. I myself have handled several thousand accipiters from 20 years of banding at a station that Brian Wheeler and I started together in 1981 and we were a smaller station. There are stations in Duluth, Cape May and others that band thousands every year! Wouldn't you think that they would have caught even one by now? In the field they are sometimes tough as they are similar in appearance but I've NEVER even had to hesitate for one second on a bird in the hand. They are totally different up close and personal. As I said, I guess anything can happen but you'd think we would pick up at least one here and there. I'll ask Brian next time I talk to him.

OK, I was talking to Brian today. Harlani and Roughlegs have been known to hybridize as well as Swainson's and Roughlegs but he has never seen any documentation that any accipiters have. What's up with those Roughlegs!

Hi Jim ! Did you get a look at the link above I supplied , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_hybrid there is a list of documented hybridizations , and there are some accipiters , a goshawk and a cooper have made a deal , the coopers seem most active among accipiters , but the buteos have been far more noticed .
the bottom of the page below External links you will find the link for the bird search.
If you check out the list, click on the bird within the list and it will give the references . Just put " hawk"in to the search box for the list of hawks to come up.

These are just a few examples of what has happened , Its just a small percentage of actual happenings I would speculate.

It also mentioned at the top of the page that a hybrid can some times be identical to a parent bird or totally different, but usally they have features of both parents . Thats an interesting point !

Jim I think hybridizing happens its just not noticed , and who is really looking for it anyhow ,?there are no guidelines for it, so its little known . So when a really strange bird does show up ,or uncertainty, thats when the questions begin.

Jim I appreciate your efforts and skills with hawks , photos too!

Jim Zipp wrote:In the field they are sometimes tough as they are similar in appearance but I've NEVER even had to hesitate for one second on a bird in the hand. They are totally different up close and personal. . . .

That says it all, doesn't it? In hand, with knowledgeable observers (which I am not), they are easily separated. Perhaps Jim would comment on whether the separation is based only on appearance, or whether measurements come into play. (And I imagine DNA would be even more decisive.)

Hey Cliff. In the hand there are lots of things that jump out at you like the eye color which is quite different.... much more yellow in sharpies than coops, size of eye compared to head size... sharpies look almost bug-eyed by comparison, coops head color is more rufous compared to body, and demenor is totally different in hand. Sharpies of course always want to get away when held in hand but coops are nuts! they nearly always have their hackles raised which makes them square headed which sharpies almost never do. Leg size isn't even close even if you take the largest female sharpie and the smallest male coop that might in the west overlap in size and the coops legs are still always bigger. Band size if I remember correctly are #2 for male sharpie, 3 for female, #4 for male coop and #5 for female. In the hand if someone can't tell them apart they just shouldn't even have a banding permit. The proportions between wingspan and overall length are different too where sharpies are actually much more similar to Goshawks than coopers. I can just imagine a male sharpie mating with a female goshawk! Wing shape itself is quite different too.

In the field it's a different story and even the best of the best make mistakes or aren't 100% sure of an ID when it comes to these guys. There is a big difference in the length of the number 6 and 7 primary in sharpies than there is in coopers which gives the sharpies a more pointed wing similar to gos. In fact, a high flying sharpie is more likely to be misidentified as a gos than a coop but still there are mistakes made. To think that the ones that are not ID'd for sure must be hybrids is absurd.

I'll say one more time and bow out... it might very well happen, but if and when it does it's extremely rare.. to the point where probably hundreds of thousands of sharpies, coopers and gos have been captured and banded and there hasn't to the best of my knowledge been one.... not one that was identified as a hybrid so, while anything is possible, it's not nearly as likely as the hybridization of Blue-winged Warblers and Golden-winged Warblers or Mallards and Black Ducks for instance.