« Previous topic | Next topic »  
Topic Locked  
 First unread post  | 34 posts | 
by E.J. Peiker on Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:48 pm
User avatar
E.J. Peiker
Senior Technical Editor
Posts: 86760
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Member #:00002
Andrew_5488 wrote:
E.J. Peiker wrote:As an interesting aside to this conversation, I have had two larger unsubscribe events to my newsletter in the 20 years I've been publishing it.  The first was back in 2005 after returning from Africa for the first time when I made a comment against trophy hunting big game and the second was my last one a couple of weeks ago where I said that I would require proof of vaccination plus 15 days for anyone to book a workshop or one on one in person consultation...
I'm a little bit surprised with first case but in second case vaccines are not 100% effective and why would you
blame people for not taking vaccines which were rushed and not fully tested ?
Not blaming them at all but that doesn't mean I have to do business with them.  It is my choice to refuse service to someone without it just as much as it is their choice not to get the vaccine.  Similarly, it is their choice to unsubscribe from my newsletter for any reason but I am still surprised that the simple act of requiring them for my workshops would cause unsubscribes from people that have never attended one nor ever even contacted me about them.  Basically that says to me that their stance against vaccines or perhaps their political beliefs are capable of influencing who they get their photography information from despite being a subscriber for many years - c'est la vie :)

by Doug on Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:15 pm
Doug
Forum Contributor
Posts: 162
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Location: Sacramento CA
I don't photograph close to others, now, or before Covid, or ever. I don't go outside to photograph wildlife in a crowd. I do wear a mask when near others.
Doug Herr
Sacramento
http://www.wildlightphoto.com

by OntPhoto on Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:14 am
User avatar
OntPhoto
Forum Contributor
Posts: 7039
Joined: 9 Dec 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario. Canada.
E.J. Peiker wrote:
Andrew_5488 wrote:
E.J. Peiker wrote:As an interesting aside to this conversation, I have had two larger unsubscribe events to my newsletter in the 20 years I've been publishing it.  The first was back in 2005 after returning from Africa for the first time when I made a comment against trophy hunting big game and the second was my last one a couple of weeks ago where I said that I would require proof of vaccination plus 15 days for anyone to book a workshop or one on one in person consultation...
I'm a little bit surprised with first case but in second case vaccines are not 100% effective and why would you
blame people for not taking vaccines which were rushed and not fully tested ?
Not blaming them at all but that doesn't mean I have to do business with them.  It is my choice to refuse service to someone without it just as much as it is their choice not to get the vaccine.  Similarly, it is their choice to unsubscribe from my newsletter for any reason but I am still surprised that the simple act of requiring them for my workshops would cause unsubscribes from people that have never attended one nor ever even contacted me about them.  Basically that says to me that their stance against vaccines or perhaps their political beliefs are capable of influencing who they get their photography information from despite being a subscriber for many years - c'est la vie :)
No Text


Last edited by OntPhoto on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Scott Fairbairn on Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:00 pm
User avatar
Scott Fairbairn
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5131
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Member #:00437
Andrew_5488 wrote:
SantaFeJoe wrote:... He said that masks don’t work. Then why do painters, people who apply pesticides, clean up asbestos, work with sawdust, etc, wear masks? He said you won’t die until it’s your time.
...
I told him masks protect you from things you can’t even see. Are they 100% effective? No, but why would someone want to take a chance?
...
Then there’s the ridiculous claim that the numbers of people who have died are skewed so that the hospitals get more money for Covid deaths. That’s another stupid thing my cousin told me he believed...

Joe
Of course it's not a hoax but:

You do know that there're different masks for different use cases ?
You do know that N95 mask will let particles of size of Covid 19 to go through ?
You do know that masks we all can see in major cities (that blue garbage) are nowhere near specs of N95 masks ?

Point of wearing a mask is to limit spread of the virus if you're infected. It doesn't protect you from anything nor
it eliminates spreading of the virus, it just limits it. Of course nobody knows specs of those blue masks so maybe
we just participate in one big happening ;-)

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that some places are skewing numbers because of money.

First, there was masks are not needed. THen, you need a mask !
Now you need two masks.
The problem is we're not given straight information and people don't trust anyone anymore.

When it comes to photographing in the open I don't wear a mask and when I see some poor schmuck without mask
coughing and spitting over himself I move away. Call me crazy.




 
Our governments have not done a stellar job during this crisis, so it's not surprising people are confused. I'll counterpoint a few of your comments. Wearing an N95 means nothing if it isn't fit tested. For example, there is a specific testing regime the must be followed in Ontario if you ask an employee to wear one. The purpose is to confirm the seal under working conditions(talking, moving, etc.). The general public will not be fit tested, so it's unknown if they will benefit since the mask could be leaking. However, masks do work, they are not 100% effective, but they don't have to be either. Seat belts and airbags in a car aren't 100% effective in saving your life, but they help, and that's why we use them. An N95 does stop the vast majority of the Covid virus, especially if you consider it mainly spreads as an aerosol mixed in with bodily fluids. It probably can spread in some cases by itself as an airborne particle, but that's not the primary route of infection.
A mask does help in preventing disease transmission. Can you imagine having surgery and the surgeon and none of the staff wore masks or gloves?
The pandemic's sad reality is that we have two ways to limit its spread, wearing a mask and social distancing. That's it. A vaccine will help too, but sadly, we'll have a slew of mutations to deal with before a high enough percentage of the population is vaccinated to slow it.

by SantaFeJoe on Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:21 pm
User avatar
SantaFeJoe
Forum Contributor
Posts: 8622
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere Out In The Wilds
Andrew_5488 wrote:
SantaFeJoe wrote:...........
Of course it's not a hoax but:

1. You do know that there're different masks for different use cases ?
2.  You do know that N95 mask will let particles of size of Covid 19 to go through ?
3.  You do know that masks we all can see in major cities (that blue garbage) are nowhere near specs of N95 masks ?

4.  Point of wearing a mask is to limit spread of the virus if you're infected. It doesn't protect you from anything nor
     it eliminates spreading of the virus, it just limits it. Of course nobody knows specs of those blue masks so maybe
     we just participate in one big happening ;-)

5.  There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that some places are skewing numbers because of money.

6.   First, there was masks are not needed. THen, you need a mask !
      Now you need two masks.
      The problem is we're not given straight information and people don't trust anyone anymore.  .........






 
For ease of responding, I numbered your questions and statements.

#1. If a person doesn’t know that yet, they are not paying attention.

      https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html

      https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

#2. Covid 19 isn’t usually passed as a solitary particle, so that doesn’t mean a lot on its’ own.

#3. Same answer as #1.

#4. Not true at all. As I told my cousin, why do painters, woodworkers and others wear masks. N95 masks with a valve are good for those   
      purposes, but not to protect others from you if infected, but a properly fitted N95 mask does protect both you and others. Are they  
      perfect? Of course not! That’s why they are called N95. Even the fact that they filter out 95% of particles over a certain size is of benefit
      to the wearer in many situations. An N95 with a valve only protects the wearer, so it’s best to use a second mask over it if you choose to 
      wear one of them. Again, the blue masks are of questionable and limited benefit, other than to make the wearer “think” they are being 
      protected or protecting others, but they are certainly better than nothing at all.

#5. As you say, “anecdotal evidence”, much of it propagated by Fox news and others:

      https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

      A hospital or doctor that is faking the numbers faces charges and can lose the Medicare contracts. Is it worth taking that risk? Certainly,
      some are unethical and many have been charged with Medicare fraud in the past, but that is not the rule.

#6. As one of the local TV channels says, “The more you know”. People were discouraged from wearing N95 masks at the beginning so the
      healthcare workers would have enough. This was all new and as time went by more was learned about the virus and masks were
      determined to be of some use. I can’t believe that anyone would reject the idea that masks work on at least some level. Certainly some 
      work more effectively than others. There are also plenty of counterfeit N95s out there and other truly junk masks, many labeled KN95.
      KN95 masks may or may not be any good. Many are counterfeits. They are not tested or approved by the USA but, rather, by foreign labs
      if at all. What I find curious is that considering where the virus is said to have originated, China seems to be making plenty of profit off
      of masks and hand sanitizers! Check out the labels on many of these products.
      The point is, as more is learned, revised recommendations are made. Isn’t that the way it should be? No reason to not trust, by any
      means!


      If you don’t care to wear a mask or deny they work, do so at your own peril, but that won’t stop prudent people from seeing the logic!

      Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso


Last edited by SantaFeJoe on Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Stephen Feingold on Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:21 pm
Stephen Feingold
Forum Contributor
Posts: 575
Joined: 1 Feb 2007
Location: Queens, NY
My earlier post made light of the mask situation.
But I see that some may benefit from facts about masks.
 
Covid viruses vary slightly in size and some can pass through the pores of a mask, many land on the mask surface, others may land on your skin; thus the viral load one inhales is reduced.  Thus, the extra barrier of two masks further reduces the viral load. The size of the viral load can make the difference between having no symptoms, mild symptoms, getting seriously ill, or not at all getting infected, especially if you are vaccinated.  Using a mask can only help, not using it is Russian roulette.
 
Do not touch the mask surfaces while you are wearing it. Only remove a mask by the strings without touching mask surfaces. And then wash yourself scrupulously. Wash a fabric mask after each use for continued use. However, the virus is not thought to survive being out of a host more than about 3-5 days (this may change depending on variants).  Thus even without washing a mask it may be safe to reuse it after one week if it remains fallow in a paper bag. Washing the mask would be safer.
 
Using an N95 or surgical mask further reduces viral load, due to an electrostatic charge, on one of its layers, that grabs and holds the virus. These masks should not be washed, as that would remove the electrostatic charge, which would make it less effective. Even the moisture from your breath may reduce the electrostatic charge. Thus, these masks should not be reused.
KN95 masks are the Chinese equivalent of the USA N95. However, only buy these from a reputable source as their quality is variable, and many are ineffective counterfeits.
 
Fabric masks vary in effectiveness depending on their porosity, type of fabric, number of layers, and most important how well it fits your face. You want an outer synthetic fabric that does not absorb water, a middle filter of fine porosity, and an inner tight weave cotton for comfort.  The mask should fit your face closely with no gaps around the nose, cheeks or chin. This is often best achieved by having a flexible metal nose band and head straps.  The mask should be large enough to extend from high on the nose to wrap under the chin. But,  it should allow you to breathe comfortably.
The CDC recommends wearing a disposable mask under a fabric mask.
Gaiters should have at least two layers.
Scarves and bandanas do not provide Covid protection.
 
Some people mock Covid recommendations due to changes in advice. Some have been due to political malfeasance, poor communication, and others due to continued learning, about a new virus, that only advances with time.
Let’s use facts and common sense to judge the difference.
 

by SantaFeJoe on Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:35 pm
User avatar
SantaFeJoe
Forum Contributor
Posts: 8622
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere Out In The Wilds
BTW, I do believe in double masking!!!
Joe
Image
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso

by Andrew_5488 on Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:32 am
Andrew_5488
Forum Contributor
Posts: 390
Joined: 15 Feb 2012
Location: NY
E.J. Peiker wrote:
Andrew_5488 wrote:
E.J. Peiker wrote:As an interesting aside to this conversation, I have had two larger unsubscribe events to my newsletter in the 20 years I've been publishing it.  The first was back in 2005 after returning from Africa for the first time when I made a comment against trophy hunting big game and the second was my last one a couple of weeks ago where I said that I would require proof of vaccination plus 15 days for anyone to book a workshop or one on one in person consultation...
I'm a little bit surprised with first case but in second case vaccines are not 100% effective and why would you
blame people for not taking vaccines which were rushed and not fully tested ?
Not blaming them at all but that doesn't mean I have to do business with them.  It is my choice to refuse service to someone without it just as much as it is their choice not to get the vaccine.  Similarly, it is their choice to unsubscribe from my newsletter for any reason but I am still surprised that the simple act of requiring them for my workshops would cause unsubscribes from people that have never attended one nor ever even contacted me about them.  Basically that says to me that their stance against vaccines or perhaps their political beliefs are capable of influencing who they get their photography information from despite being a subscriber for many years - c'est la vie :)
I guess I didn't read it thoroughly ( I was thinking they cancelled workshops) . It is weird why they unsubscribed from newsletter.

by sdaconsulting on Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:51 am
sdaconsulting
Forum Contributor
Posts: 579
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Location: Moncure, NC
E.J. Peiker wrote:As an interesting aside to this conversation, I have had two larger unsubscribe events to my newsletter in the 20 years I've been publishing it.  The first was back in 2005 after returning from Africa for the first time when I made a comment against trophy hunting big game and the second was my last one a couple of weeks ago where I said that I would require proof of vaccination plus 15 days for anyone to book a workshop or one on one in person consultation...

Unfathomable to me that some photographers are into trophy hunting! Saddened but unfortunately not surprised by the negative reaction to your (entirely sensible!) vaccination requirement.
Matthew Cromer

by Andrew_5488 on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:48 am
Andrew_5488
Forum Contributor
Posts: 390
Joined: 15 Feb 2012
Location: NY
SantaFeJoe wrote:
Andrew_5488 wrote:
SantaFeJoe wrote:...........

#5. As you say, “anecdotal evidence”, much of it propagated by Fox news and others:
      https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

      A hospital or doctor that is faking the numbers faces charges and can lose the Medicare contracts. Is it worth taking that risk? Certainly,
      some are unethical and many have been charged with Medicare fraud in the past, but that is not the rule.

#6. As one of the local TV channels says, “The more you know”. People were discouraged from wearing N95 masks at the beginning so the
      healthcare workers would have enough. This was all new and as time went by more was learned about the virus and masks were
      determined to be of some use. I can’t believe that anyone would reject the idea that masks work on at least some level. Certainly
...

What I find curious is that considering where the virus is said to have originated, China seems to be making plenty of profit off
      of masks and hand sanitizers! Check out the labels on many of these products.
      The point is, as more is learned, revised recommendations are made. Isn’t that the way it should be? No reason to not trust, by any
      means!


      If you don’t care to wear a mask or deny they work, do so at your own peril, but that won’t stop prudent people from seeing the logic!

      Joe
I'm not going to address your previous points because I don't have time to search Internet for counterpoints since last march.
Let's just say that we agree to disagree on some points.

I don't watch Fox nor any other TV. There's no point. I'm talking about videos on Youtube. I guess all those people had other motives
and had nothing else to do but post deceptive videos.

People weren't discouraged from wearing N95 masks. They're told not to. First think I did after seeing that there's no N95 masks available anywhere, I bought pack from ebay paying 6x price so I could use it if needed.

You statement about China making a profit is a joke, right ?
Or maybe you should fact check it ?

by SantaFeJoe on Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:09 pm
User avatar
SantaFeJoe
Forum Contributor
Posts: 8622
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere Out In The Wilds
Andrew_5488 wrote:
SantaFeJoe wrote:.....

What I find curious is that considering where the virus is said to have originated, China seems to be making plenty of profit off
      of masks and hand sanitizers! Check out the labels on many of these products.
   .......
You statement about China making a profit is a joke, right ?
Or maybe you should fact check it ?
When I post anything, I don’t just say it without basis! Here is some info for you about masks. Read where a KN95 mask comes from:

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf

Here are a couple of images of labels on masks and a bottle of hand sanitizer:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Check the masks and hand sanitizer in your local store. Those are not the only products from China. CHINA and India are the worlds  largest producers of hypodermic needles. Read the second paragraph here:

[font=Helvetica]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-syringes-idUSKBN2A20BS[/font]

Enough said on ,this subject. Now you can do your own research if you want to learn more about anything I have said here.

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso

by OntPhoto on Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:32 pm
User avatar
OntPhoto
Forum Contributor
Posts: 7039
Joined: 9 Dec 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario. Canada.
New Stay At Home order announced for Ontario.  Police to monitor border crossings for both Quebec and Manitoba which share a border with Ontario.  Outdoors gatherings restricted to only those in the same household.  Golf courses and playgrounds to close.  This is sounding more like the first Stay At Home last March 2020.  I am hoping they will not close parking lots of NCC trail heads which they did last March 2020. 

Ontario is in the third wave of the pandemic mainly with the new variants. Currently over 4,000 daily infections reported.  If nothing is done, daily numbers expected to be over 18,000.  Police have been given powers to stop vehicles and individuals to inquire why they are not at home.  And ask for ID such as home address.  Likely this is to stop visitors from out of town.  Thankfully, exercise is a valid reason.  But not if you are out of town.  I think the gathering of groups of people for photography purposes will be prohibited and questioned.

I can’t speak for places like Point Pelee but expect places like that to close for the duration of the Stay At Home order.

by DChan on Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:20 pm
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
SantaFeJoe wrote:
Andrew_5488 wrote:
SantaFeJoe wrote:.....

What I find curious is that considering where the virus is said to have originated, China seems to be making plenty of profit off
      of masks and hand sanitizers! Check out the labels on many of these products.
   .......
You statement about China making a profit is a joke, right ?
Or maybe you should fact check it ?
When I post anything, I don’t just say it without basis! Here is some info for you about masks. Read where a KN95 mask comes from:

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf

Here are a couple of images of labels on masks and a bottle of hand sanitizer:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Check the masks and hand sanitizer in your local store. Those are not the only products from China. CHINA and India are the worlds  largest producers of hypodermic needles. Read the second paragraph here:

[font=Helvetica]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-syringes-idUSKBN2A20BS[/font]

Enough said on ,this subject. Now you can do your own research if you want to learn more about anything I have said here.

Joe
Certainly some people are making tons of money from this pandemic. Some Belgium Minister "accidentally" posted on social media the per-dose prices of the known vaccines. Pfizer and Moderna are the most expensive ones. If my memory still serves me - I read it in The Gaurdian - each of them cost about $20 per dose while it was just a couple of dollar apiece for Oxford-AstraZenaca's. Prices might have changed now. I wonder how much money Pfizer and Modernia must be making given that pretty much the entire world buy from them (even China is considering it from what I read).

Amazon also is profiting quite a lot these days. No surprise there. I wonder if toilet papers manufacturers make a bit more money, too :-) Also seen quite a few food deliver these days.

KN95 has always been the Chinese equivalence of N95. Nothing new there.

Also read some folks in US - or was that in Germany - wanted to start making masks. Then he found out out the machines he needed would be from China and so he changed his mind and just ordered the masks from China for his clients instead.

I'm sure if other countries want to make masks and other PPEs, they certainly have the abilities to do it. I mean, they're simple stuff, right? Nothing complicated. Why not? Not enough money to make there?? My masks were made in Vietnam. 4 plys if I'm not mistaken. So far so good...since I'm still fine AFAIK. And my hand-sanitizer was made in Korea. Lysol, Clorox...USA, Canada I think.

So, yeah, some folks actually are doing quite well during a pandemic.

by E.J. Peiker on Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:15 pm
User avatar
E.J. Peiker
Senior Technical Editor
Posts: 86760
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Member #:00002
We have received a number of complaints about the direction that this has gone.  This thread has gone off the rails and we are now heading into conspiracy theory territory in some of the responses.  This thread is now officially closed.

Display posts from previous:  Sort by:  
34 posts | 
  

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group