« Previous topic | Next topic »  
Reply to topic  
 First unread post  | 20 posts | 
by thomasscottphoto on Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:37 am
thomasscottphoto
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2
Joined: 25 Jul 2020
Hi fellow photographers,

For me, metering is a very important concept to understand in order to expose images properly, because there's nothing worse than over/underexposing a photo.

That's why I've created this video, explaining a concept few take the time to understand; metering modes (for Nikon cameras, but it's also the same for Canon):

https://youtu.be/B9C6LMYftko

Hope it helps and let me know if you have any questions!

All the best, 
 Thomas
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:18 am
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Hello Thomas,
I agree with you that in most cases Matrix Metering is the best choice. Maybe I missed something in your video, but you did not discuss what Matrix Metering does to your image when photographing in full manual, which in my experience is the best mode for birds in flight. Some people might believe that Matrix Metering affects exposure when in full manual.
 

by EGrav on Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:24 am
User avatar
EGrav
Forum Contributor
Posts: 469
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: USA
I think more important than under/over exposing is not getting a sharp image.


Last edited by EGrav on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:24 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
EGrav wrote:I think more important than under/over exposing is not getting a sharp image.
I think we're talking about two different things.  In the full manual mode, any metering mode you have selected has nothing to do with the actual image.  On Nikon, you can look at the exposure meter and it will let you know if it thinks your photo is properly exposed.  However, the exposure meter in my experience, can be wrong and at best it's only a wag.  In full manual, the exposure is set for the subject, not the overall image.  Proper exposure of the subject is what allows for a sharp image. 
 

by EGrav on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:52 pm
User avatar
EGrav
Forum Contributor
Posts: 469
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: USA
Ha! I’ve had many images over/under exposed that were sharp; and many soft images, perfectly exposed. I don’t think there is a correlation there.
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:16 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
EGrav wrote:Ha! I’ve had many images over/under exposed that were sharp; and many soft images, perfectly exposed. I don’t think there is a correlation there.
In the original video, there was not a delineation between using Matrix metering in a Camera Auto Mode or when in full manual.  --Matrix metering does not work in the full manual mode.  In the video that is not clearly explained.  He makes it appear that matrix metering always works and is the best exposure mode when photographing birds in flight.  I have not said anything about soft/sharp images or over/under exposed images.  That would be a whole different discussion.  I hope that I am more clear now and you understand that I was only trying to point out that in full manual the photographer has complete control of exposure.  Matrix, or any other metering mode, does not make any adjustments to exposure, or anything else because they are inoperative when in full manual.
 

by EGrav on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:33 pm
User avatar
EGrav
Forum Contributor
Posts: 469
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: USA
I guess I misunderstood your statement:
“Proper exposure of the subject is what allows for a sharp image.”

Have a nice day.


Last edited by EGrav on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:56 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
EGrav wrote:I guess I misunderstood your statement:
“Proper exposure of the subject is what allows for a sharp image.”

Have a nice day.
Yes, we are in complete agreement that proper exposure of the subject is where the rubber meets the road. 
 

by DChan on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:02 pm
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Gene Gwin wrote:
EGrav wrote:Ha! I’ve had many images over/under exposed that were sharp; and many soft images, perfectly exposed. I don’t think there is a correlation there.
  --Matrix metering does not work in the full manual mode.  In the video that is not clearly explained. ...
I believe you are wrong about matrix metering! Try this:

Metering mode


Here's what I know:
Matrix metering mode is just another way the exposure meter gathers the data in order to come up with an average reading. Whether you're shooting in auto-exposure mode or not does not change that. Your shooting in auto-exposure mode simply makes it easier for you to do exposure compensation. The difference between shooting in full-manual exposure mode -which I do all the time with slr/dslr - and auto-exposure mode is in the way you change the iso/aperature/shutter speed when you need to make exposure compensation. Shooting in either exposure mode does not change how the metering mode works, i.e., matrix mode still operates the way it's designed in manual mode.
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:46 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
DChan wrote:
Gene Gwin wrote:
EGrav wrote:Ha! I’ve had many images over/under exposed that were sharp; and many soft images, perfectly exposed. I don’t think there is a correlation there.
  --Matrix metering does not work in the full manual mode.  In the video that is not clearly explained. ...
I believe you are wrong about matrix metering! Try this:

Metering mode


Here's what I know:
Matrix metering mode is just another way the exposure meter gathers the data in order to come up with an average reading. Whether you're shooting in auto-exposure mode or not does not change that. Your shooting in auto-exposure mode simply makes it easier for you to do exposure compensation. The difference between shooting in full-manual exposure mode -which I do all the time with slr/dslr - and auto-exposure mode is in the way you change the iso/aperature/shutter speed when you need to make exposure compensation. Shooting in either exposure mode does not change how the metering mode works, i.e., matrix mode still operates the way it's designed in manual mode.
Glad this discussion is taking place.  Hopefully someone will have a definitive answer.  I believe that if you set the camera to manual mode the metering system is functional, but the metering system is not used to effect camera settings.  In full manual, your settings (ISO, SS, f/number) take precedence, even if it causes severe under or over exposure of the image.  For Nikon cameras, in the viewfinder at the bottom center is the exposure indicator.  The camera's metering system, using whatever mode is already set in (matrix, etc.) will give you an indication of whether it thinks YOU have set the exposure properly. 

You said, "exposure mode is the way you change the iso/aperature/shutter speed when you need to make exposure compensation."  If you're saying that in full manual exposure compensation still works, that is not correct.  You can prove it to yourself in full manual by putting exposure compensation to -3 and take a picture then to +3 and take a picture and you will see that the exposure of the image does not change.  Exposure compensation works only in an auto mode, to include manual with auto-iso.     

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
 

by DChan on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:20 pm
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Gene Gwin wrote:
DChan wrote:
Gene Gwin wrote:
EGrav wrote:Ha! I’ve had many images over/under exposed that were sharp; and many soft images, perfectly exposed. I don’t think there is a correlation there.
  --Matrix metering does not work in the full manual mode.  In the video that is not clearly explained. ...
I believe you are wrong about matrix metering! Try this:

Metering mode


Here's what I know:
Matrix metering mode is just another way the exposure meter gathers the data in order to come up with an average reading. Whether you're shooting in auto-exposure mode or not does not change that. Your shooting in auto-exposure mode simply makes it easier for you to do exposure compensation. The difference between shooting in full-manual exposure mode -which I do all the time with slr/dslr - and auto-exposure mode is in the way you change the iso/aperature/shutter speed when you need to make exposure compensation. Shooting in either exposure mode does not change how the metering mode works, i.e., matrix mode still operates the way it's designed in manual mode.
Glad this discussion is taking place.  Hopefully someone will have a definitive answer.  I believe that if you set the camera to manual mode the metering system is functional, [snip]
And yet, you said matrix mode was not operational in manual mode. Three possibilities I can think of:

1) you are contradicting yourself now;
2) you somehow did not say what you meant clearly in your earlier post;
3) I misread you and if so, for that I apologize.

but the metering system is not used to effect camera settings.
Of course it does not. That's not what manual exposure mode does and hence the word "manual" (did I mention I only shoot full manual mode with slr/dslr??)

The camera's metering system, using whatever mode is already set in (matrix, etc.)
I thought you said matrix mode did not work in full manual exposure mode??
will give you an indication of whether it thinks YOU have set the exposure properly.
More specifically, what the exposure meter thinks is correct i.e., no over or under exposure for a particular scene. It's an average and thus can be affected by any existing outlier in the scene. What the proper exposure settings should be is up to the photographer. That's when exposure compensation comes in if necessary.
You said, "exposure mode is the way you change the iso/aperature/shutter speed when you need to make exposure compensation."  If you're saying that in full manual exposure compensation still works, that is not correct.
You are making exposure compensation whenever you deviate from what the exposure meter suggests and adjust the settings based on what you want the final image to be. You can do that in all exposure modes, auto or full manual. Perhaps it's because of the exposure compensation button which helps you adjust the exposure setting in auto modes that makes you and other people believe exposure compensation only happens in auto exposure mode. Or perhaps it's the word "compensation" that confuses people when all it does is just another way to adjust the shutter speed in aperture priority auto exposure mode, or the aperture in shutter priority auto mode for examples. So instead of "compensation" - which can be positive or negative - perhaps it should simply be "adjustment". Of course you don't use that button in full manual mode and - that's why it's call manual mode - turn the shutter speed dial, for example, directly yourself. And just because you don't use that button does not mean you're not "compensating" the suggested exposure. Why? Because to compensate is to change the exposure settings. You use that compensation button to achieve that in auto exposure mode. You turn the shutter speed/aperture dial (ring in the old days) in full manual mode. Different buttons/dial, same adjustment, same purpose doing the same darn thing. Just different ways to say it.

Bottomline: matrix metering mode works in all exposure mode.
 

by Gene Gwin on Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
DChan,
I agree with your explanation about exposure compensation. I stand by my statement that the exposure compensation button does not work in full manual mode. Of course you must then adjust exposure using shutter speed, ISO, or f/number. I have photographed with people that believe you can adjust exposure using the exposure compensation button when they're in full manual.

"I thought you said matrix mode did not work in full manual exposure mode??" The exposure meter at the bottom of the camera uses the metering mode that you have selected and then makes its best guess of what is a properly exposed image. Yes, the matrix metering does not affect the image in full manual, but the exposure meter at the bottom of the viewfinder would be based on the metering mode you have selected.
 

by DChan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:35 am
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Gene Gwin
[snip]
  I stand by my statement that the exposure compensation button does not work in full manual mode. [snip]
Of course the button does not work because that button is for when auto exposure mode is used to adjust the exposure settings. No dispute there. That being said, some people say that it does affect the behavior of the in-camera exposure meter, i.e., if you had used that button previously to get a one-stop compensation, for instance, and you did not reset it back to zero afterwards, then the meter readings from that point on is skewed. I don't use the exposure compensation button so I cannot validate that claim.


Anyhow, nowadays accurate exposure during the shoot isn't really necessary since you can make adjustments in post-processing.
 

by SantaFeJoe on Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:55 pm
User avatar
SantaFeJoe
Forum Contributor
Posts: 8622
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere Out In The Wilds
Gene Gwin wrote:..........I stand by my statement that the exposure compensation button does not work in full manual mode......... I have photographed with people that believe you can adjust exposure using the exposure compensation button when they're in full manual..........
According to a Nikon manual, the exposure compensation button affects the exposure scale at the bottom of the screen. If you are basing your exposure on that scale and you have adjusted the exposure compensation dial to anything other than zero, it will affect what the scale is telling you. It does not actually change the shutter speed or aperture, but it changes the scale.

From the manual:
In exposure mode M, only the exposure information shown in the electronic analog exposure display is affected; shutter speed and aperture do not change.
And from Nikon:

https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/na/NSG_article?articleNo=000025875&configured=1&lang=en_SG

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
 

by E.J. Peiker on Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:06 pm
User avatar
E.J. Peiker
Senior Technical Editor
Posts: 86761
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Member #:00002
Of course Exposure Compensation doesn't work in full manual mode, because it's full manual mode. You just change the aperture, shutter speed or ISO to adjust the exposure.
 

by SantaFeJoe on Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:11 pm
User avatar
SantaFeJoe
Forum Contributor
Posts: 8622
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere Out In The Wilds
E.J. Peiker wrote:Of course Exposure Compensation doesn't work in full manual mode, because it's full manual mode.  You just change the aperture, shutter speed or ISO to adjust the exposure.
But if you adjust exposure according to the scale , as I referenced above, it does affect the scale. If you don't use the scale(needle matching in the old days) then it doesn't matter.

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
 

by Gene Gwin on Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:21 pm
Gene Gwin
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5375
Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Joe, Good point. I find that the scale is not that accurate and at its best when the background does not change.
 

by DChan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:15 pm
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
SantaFeJoe wrote:
E.J. Peiker wrote:Of course Exposure Compensation doesn't work in full manual mode, because it's full manual mode.  You just change the aperture, shutter speed or ISO to adjust the exposure.
But if you adjust exposure according to the scale , as I referenced above, it does affect the scale. If you don't use the scale(needle matching in the old days) then it doesn't matter.

Joe
If one is shooting in full manual mode, one should not be using the exposure compensation button to begin with. If he/she does, or keep whining about that button does not work in manual mode, IMO, it simply tells me that person does not know how to shoot with the full manual mode and how the camera operates.
 

by Karl Egressy on Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:46 am
User avatar
Karl Egressy
Forum Contributor
Posts: 39506
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Member #:00988
If you shoot in full manual mode for bird photography, it is almost irrelevant as to what setting you use to measure light. After so many years of being out on the field on a daily basis, your eyes and brain seems to know what setting to start with and do a little tweaking if you need to.
 

by DChan on Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:03 am
DChan
Forum Contributor
Posts: 2206
Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Karl Egressy wrote:If you shoot in full manual mode for bird photography, it is almost irrelevant as to what setting you use to  measure light. After so many years of being out on the field on a daily basis, your eyes and brain seems to know what setting to start with and do a little tweaking if you need to.
One of my cousins when he first learned photography, someone taught him to shoot in full manual mode and not use the exposure meter. Since he was new, he screwed up a lot of his photos with all kind of wrong exposure settings :) . I don't know which genius taught him that but I believe Ansel Adam (remember him?) also used an exposure meter, you know, with his all mechanical camera(s). Of course you can also learn about the sunny 16 rule or utilize your previous experiences. But it's kind of like the photographer himself is now the exposure meter. If we are talking about exposure modes, then one can say it's almost irrelevant which one you use to measure light. After all, they all help you get to the right exposure settings. They just sample the data differently. If we are talking about not using the exposure meter at all, well, if you prefer to guess, be my guest :-) Shooting in full manual mode as I understand it simply means setting the iso, shutter speed and aperture (also the focus back then) directly myself. Using the exposure meter or not is not part of the equation that I know of.
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by:  
20 posts | 
  

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group