Get Off My Lawn!

I am SO disappointed with so many of you.  If you’re actually bothering to read this, probably not you.  I joined this site after it split off from another, which I joined very shortly after I got somewhat serious about nature photography.  I learned so much!  I treasured and revelled in the ”great shot”s, and felt so proud when I got an IOW (before the EPs).  Anymore, I’m lucky to hear ANY, much less constructive, feedback from anyone other than a mod - Thank you to you few (and of course to the mod’s), you know who you are, I’d love to call you out but would inevitably miss someone.   I’ll get 50-100 views (or more or fewer, depending on the forum), and 6 comments?  If I’m lucky?  Nobody else  has suggestions?  Greg and the crew have pleaded, but still, for so many, this is “look at me,” with zero contribution.  That’s what Fb is for - all your friends can LIKE your pics, you can revel in it.  I’ve become part of the problem - there are very talented photogs here who post their pics, yet offer zero feedback, (especially constructive feedback, when asked for) - so now I ignore them.  I guess I’m stooping to their level.  What a waste of a resource!  Yeah, I’m now old and grouchy.  Kids these days.  Whatever.  Thanks so much to Greg, E.J, Cynthia, Carolyn, Chan, mod’s I missed, some of the members/contributors who bother to offer feedback and advice / suggestions, and many others who I no doubt left out.  I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it and take your comments and suggestions to heart.
Rant over.  

Edit: Maybe not the right forum, maybe totally inappropriate for any forum - of course you’ll move.or delete as you see fit.

Sometimes it has been suggested that for every post a contributor to the galleries makes, 10 comments should be left on others images. I feel that this makes for very insincere comments. I post comments or suggestions as I feel fit, not as suggested. Sometimes critical and sometimes complimentary. You can see my pattern here:

search.php?author_id=48018&sr=posts

I notice when people post and comment at the same time, you can see they are just filling space. The moderators are really doing their job in general, but if you look at the mods for each forum, some are MIA!!! They comment when posting, but seldom at other times. That’s my opinion.

Joe

I agree.
Sometimes I “drop out” for a while. This is my hobby, my fun time - when I have time for it, I look at others’ posts, especially in the forum I’m currently “working on”. I definitely reply to other’s posts then, because that’s when I’m engaged with the forum. I’ll try to point out what I like, and offer my suggestions, if they request such in their post, or even if there’s something that really jumps out at me. X # of replies for each submission, to me, seems to encourage a lot of “nice shot” flippant replies; I guess I’m a hopeless idealist, but I really wish the “average” poster here would try to contribute as much as they hope to receive.

Craig, this is how it is everywhere these days. People post on forums simply because there is nothing else to do and they love seeing how many posts they've chalked up. There are also ego issues, if you are even slightly critical of somebody's post, you get a major reaction from the person.

There is also a degree of condescension on many forums. A couple of years ago I had posted my own results of speed testing on a CF card. One postor here, supposedly a Pro, responded very sarcastically by asking me 'and this helps your photography how?". Needless to say, that sort of a response puts people off.

Having said that, I find NS to be one of the better forums for photography, the mods and the pros here are very helpful overall. I cannot say how many times EJ and the others have helped me out when I had a question.

As far as posting pictures here, I seldom if ever do, simply because I feel I am not in the same league as the others who do. So many people here are really very, very good and I am humbled at the thought of putting my own stuff up here, a bit like trying to sing on the same stage as Freddie Mercury. Yes, I wish they would, along with their images describe their thoughts behind it, their technique and their processing. I suspect the world is so competitive that this may not be such a good idea after all.

I agree with Joe, about 'likes' and similar favorable comments, it becomes too much of an echo chamber, everyone liking everyone's pictures even if they are only mediocre. You are never going to get truly critical comments because that starts a flame war and nobody wants that. So easy to fall down that slippery slope on the internet.

I've been on various fora since 1992 from the UseNet days and human nature being what it is, things have not changed much overall.

Pradeep

Craig,
I'm going to say something that is not always correct, but it seems that way fairly often. As just an example, lets say that I make a comment about shutter speed. I'll say something like maybe you don't need 5000 SS because it's a slow moving bird sitting on a perch. The 5000 SS forced an ISO of 1600 and that a shutter speed of around 2000 would have allowed a lower ISO for better image quality and increased dynamic range. Someone will quite often say something about how they liked that the action was stopped so well. This will be said by a experienced photographer, so I know they understand the SS vs. ISO vs. image quality relationship. It seems some people think that if you make a comment other than completely positive that you might hurt their feelings. It might be my delivery--I hope not and if it is, I apologize. Because of that, I make constructive/critical comments less than I used to. I've learned a lot on this site and comments that point out how to improve a photo is always appreciated.

Gene Gwin wrote:Craig,
I'm going to say something that is not always correct, but it seems that way fairly often.  As just an example, lets say that I make a comment about shutter speed.  I'll say something like maybe you don't need 5000 SS because it's a slow moving bird sitting on a perch. The 5000 SS forced an ISO of 1600 and that a shutter speed of around 2000 would have allowed a lower ISO for better image quality and increased dynamic range.  Someone will quite often say something about how they liked that the action was stopped so well.  This will be said by a experienced photographer, so I know they understand the SS vs. ISO vs. image quality relationship.  It seems some people think that if you make a comment other than completely positive that you might hurt their feelings.  It might be my delivery--I hope not and if it is, I apologize.  Because of that, I make constructive/critical comments less than I used to.  I've learned a lot on this site and comments that point out how to improve a photo is always appreciated.

Because I learn so much from the critiques from better photographers, I always say something along the lines of “comments and suggestions always welcome”.  If I don’t see something like that, I’ll compliment if I can do so sincerely.  In the Birds gallery, there are SO many posts that’s its not always practical; in Flora and Macro, 3 new posts is a big day.  I think I’m too right brained for digital art, and since I rarely get good opportunities for mammals, I rarely visit there.  I’m not saying every viewer should comment on every post, but I just find it selfish that there are so many members and contributors who don’t offer anything but “look at what I did”.  It’s an old problem and an old gripe, and anyone who’s read this is unlikely to be part of the problem - I guess I’m just a curmudgeon blowing off steam.

Craig - I am guilty of just saying something nice about an image that was posted as I tend to comment on the ones that I really like. I do post many more of my images on Facebook now because my friends and family will see them there. Sometimes when I post one of my images on Naturescapes I will ask a question about it to encourage critiques and comments. Something like, "what do you think about the crop", or "Is it too dark?" That sometimes gets the ball rolling. Good topic. Steve

Lerkes wrote:Craig - I am guilty of just saying something nice about an image that was posted as I tend to comment on the ones that I really like.   I do post many more of my images on Facebook now because my friends and family will see them there.  Sometimes when I post one of my images on Naturescapes I will ask a question about it to encourage critiques and comments.  Something like, "what do you think about the crop", or "Is it too dark?"  That sometimes gets the ball rolling.  Good topic.   Steve

I don’t see that as being “guilty”.  In my book, there’s nothing wrong with a sincere compliment!  I, too, am wary of constructive criticism unless it’s explicitly requested.  My opinion is just that - an opinion, based on personal taste.  My whole gripe is people who don’t contribute, just “show off”.  But that’s the norm now, I guess - kind of like “selfies”.

Craig,

Thank you for this post -- I like it because I share a the sentiment. It is too bad that this forum can't be like a week-long photography workshop I once experienced, in which we were encouraged each day to offer critiques of photos taken by our classmates. By example, our instructor showed how to make critiques as positive comments, by suggesting possible ways a photo might have been improved as a for instance. But, there are many of us on this forum and we really don't know one another other than by what we post as images & comments. So, I expect there is a substantial lack of trust that keeps a lot of folks from stepping up the way we might like them to.

Craig, rather than "comments and suggestions always welcome,” try stating "serious, constructive critiques wanted," and see if that doesn't make a difference. I agree that some seem offended at the slightest suggestion for improvement, and that often responses are limited in fear of offending the poster of the image. But if you openly make it clear you want "serious, constructive critiques," I think you will get them.

Ron Day wrote:Craig, rather than "comments and suggestions always welcome,” try stating "serious, constructive critiques wanted," and see if that doesn't make a difference. I agree that some seem offended at the slightest suggestion for improvement, and that often responses are limited in fear of offending the poster of the image. But if you openly make it clear you want "serious, constructive critiques," I think you will get them.

That seems so subtle to me, but maybe, (I hope), your right here.  I really fear the culture is so ingrained that there are an exceptional few who are willing and a majority who aren’t. I hope I’m wrong, I’ll give it a try, and I’ll be thrilled if you’ve just helped solve a real shortcoming!

Craig Lipski wrote:

Ron Day wrote:Craig, rather than "comments and suggestions always welcome,” try stating "serious, constructive critiques wanted," and see if that doesn't make a difference. I agree that some seem offended at the slightest suggestion for improvement, and that often responses are limited in fear of offending the poster of the image. But if you openly make it clear you want "serious, constructive critiques," I think you will get them.

That seems so subtle to me, but maybe, (I hope), your right here.  I really fear the culture is so ingrained that there are an exceptional few who are willing and a majority who aren’t. I hope I’m wrong, I’ll give it a try, and I’ll be thrilled if you’ve just helped solve a real shortcoming!

Give it a try, Craig. I've seen it work. The key is to let everyone know you are asking for and wanting "serious, constructive critiques."  I should also mention that when you tell the membership you want serious, constructive critiques, you need to be prepared to respect the views of those responding, because you may not agree with them. It is not appropriate to start an argument, accept their views and move on.

Ron Day wrote:

Craig Lipski wrote:

Ron Day wrote:Craig, rather than "comments and suggestions always welcome,” try stating "serious, constructive critiques wanted," and see if that doesn't make a difference. I agree that some seem offended at the slightest suggestion for improvement, and that often responses are limited in fear of offending the poster of the image. But if you openly make it clear you want "serious, constructive critiques," I think you will get them.

That seems so subtle to me, but maybe, (I hope), your right here.  I really fear the culture is so ingrained that there are an exceptional few who are willing and a majority who aren’t. I hope I’m wrong, I’ll give it a try, and I’ll be thrilled if you’ve just helped solve a real shortcoming!

Give it a try, Craig. I've seen it work. The key is to let everyone know you are asking for and wanting "serious, constructive critiques."  I should also mention that when you tell the membership you want serious, constructive critiques, you need to be prepared to respect the views of those responding, because you may not agree with them. It is not appropriate to start an argument, accept their views and move on.

I wouldn’t ask for honest critique if I didn’t want it - I may not agree, but I’d digest and consider it - I would hope that would be the case for anyone requesting such.  I think a “how could this photo be better?” forum might be really interesting, but probably wouldn’t work in the real world.  I learned the basics from 2 books and one friend who I think is an absolutely incredible photographer, but then I learned so much just looking here and from the advice and suggestions of others.
BTW, I’m on a tablet right now, not easy to jump around, but I just realized that (I think) you just offered a suggestion on one of my posts - and while I didn’t think it horrible, it wasn’t for me.  But I asked!  And I didn’t get snotty or defensive!  (And, Yes, I really did just realize this.). And you know what?  I asked, I didn’t necessarily agree, but I appreciated the input, and it didn’t hurt at all!

Primus wrote:



As far as posting pictures here, I seldom if ever do, simply because I feel I am not in the same league as the others who do. So many people here are really very, very good and I am humbled at the thought of putting my own stuff up here, a bit like trying to sing on the same stage as Freddie Mercury. Yes, I wish they would, along with their images describe their thoughts behind it, their technique and their processing. I suspect the world is so competitive that this may not be such a good idea after all.

I agree with Joe, about 'likes' and similar favorable comments, it becomes too much of an echo chamber, everyone liking everyone's pictures even if they are only mediocre. You are never going to get truly critical comments because that starts a flame war and nobody wants that. So easy to fall down that slippery slope on the internet.

I've been on various fora since 1992 from the UseNet days and human nature being what it is, things have not changed much overall.

Pradeep

Pradeep-I am sorry to hear that you feel uncomfortable posting pictures for the reasons you state above. I think it is a learning process to do so, especially if you are willing to do as Ron suggests so well-ask for feedback.  I know a lot of my work is not top-pro quality. But I like to see what people think and how I can improve. Obviously some people have amazing equipment, time and talent, but we should not ignore those who don't. I see "newbies" who get 1 or 2 replies-or none, except from mods.  We should be encouraging them.  That said, you are not exactly an beginner!

As for all the "likes"- yes, it seems epidemic, but there is also a lot to like! As a mod, I do want to support both good work and also try to be helpful when people are feeling a little unsure. Sometimes there are some fairly obvious possible improvements that can be made. (It is, of course, purely subjective.) As time goes on I worry less about offending people and have found that most comments intended to be helpful are appreciated.

I would want to see the old suggestion implemented- -if you post, comment on other's work. And...(radical idea), look through the site and comment even if you don't post! I think the more people see your willingness to comment, the more they will reciprocate.