Posting, commenting.

No better place to get quality, civil, informed information.

Interesting discussion. I am one who was less active for a while, only reading and contributing to the discussion forums. However, I now have a bit more time and post an occasional image in the galleries. I try to comment on at least 4 or 5 when ever I post an image of my own. I am getting back to commenting on images even if I do not post any of my own. Why was I less active? One reason was just the time I had available. Another is that while I really enjoy the image galleries, but as said above, many images all over the internet are similar presentations of now familiar subjects. I, for one, am guilty of posting bird images which are the traditional bird on a stick or traditional wood duck presentations that are similar to thousands of others. I am trying to change that. So, I now comment more on those "special" images and try to learn from them. Someone above mentioned including details of the process that went into making the image would be helpful. I totally agree. The tech stuff as well as the creative decisions made would be great. I do believe this would help a lot. Sorry I am rambling with my thoughts as they come to mind. Bottom line is that this is a great site with a great community. Let's use this positive discussion to make it even better.

Although you probably can't tell from the crowds at some locations, I actually think the decline is due to an overall decline in the interest in dslr  photography. I offer these points as indicators: 1) The decline in circulation of nature photography magazines, 2) the slide in membership and function of NANPA, 3) the struggle for some providers to fill their workshops, and 4) maturation of the digital imagery process. I also have no figures, but hasn't the sales of dslrs gone flat or declined?

Point 4 is maybe most important. Back in the day, when digital began to erode and replace film as the capture medium, large numbers of people needed help and information to make the conversion. The whole market boomed. Then, as the digital process matured, essentially creating, large, very expensive point and shoot cameras, the number of people who entered the craft because of interest in the technology (both in-camera and software-wise), rather than the craft of photography itself, began to move on....especially to iphones. By one source, 17 trillion photos were taken in 2017, the vast majority through phones.

I would not be surprised if NSN has seen a similar decline in participation and membership. Only Greg knows, I guess.

Tom Walker

This topic "lack of postings & comments in the galleries" has been discussed a number of times in the past on NSN. The comments made in this thread are similar to those that have been made in the past with the exception of how social media has impacted postings, which is a fairly new influence. As a long time member I have seen many people come and go. It's the nature of people and sites like this; there is an ebb and flow to all things. People's lives and circumstances constantly change. The NSN store and workshops provide the additional monies necessary to keep the site in the black as I'm fairly certain memberships alone can't pay the bills.
I think that digital photography with it's instant feedback and fabulous new cameras; and the internet with its wealth of free tutorials has narrowed the gap between the experienced and the inexperienced photographer to the point where those with a serious intent can produce photos that match up well with the very experienced photographer. Unfortunately this has had a serious downside, many of the photos have a sameness, and a lack of emotion to them; e.g. "Bird on a Stick". This sameness engenders a lack of interest in making comments. The lack of "visual emotion" further reduces the interest of the viewer. I believe that these two missing ingredients help cause both the lack of comments and the lack of posting interest.  
And no I don't post photos or make comments in the galleries; it's just not something that I like to do.
I would like to echo the comments made about E.J.; "Without a doubt this site would have gone the way of the Dodo without the constant involvement and fabulous expertise of E.J. Peiker". How he can answer just about any question thrown his way is just amazing". How he can do it close to 81,000 times boggles my mind. Thank you E.J.  I'd also like to thank Greg Downing for his behind the scenes magic that keeps the site moving forward and in the black. 

DChan wrote:

wdg wrote:...I don't bother posting photos anymore tho because of the lack of comments on most people's photos. ..

What constructive comments you could make on photos that are technically well-executed but boring ?

Would insightful comments be more forthcoming if the poster includes more about what it took to get the shot?

Paul

Two suggestions to consider:
Get rid of any social media quick links.
Add a gallery for cell phone photos.

Paul

NSN is a top-notch site and moderators do a great job here of not only moderating but contributing. Having been a moderator some time ago, it's no easy task and requires a thick hide.

One of the great forum benefits is sharing information by asking for and receiving help or trying to assist in finding a solution with someone's problem. That's when forums are the most useful to me.

There may well be something to the social media influence taking away from activity on this site. There was a similar thread regarding the lack of activity on the Sports Shooter site.

Paul Fusco wrote:Add a gallery for cell phone photos.

Paul

I agree with this suggestion. Even though purists may feel that it would lower the level of the site, it is good to keep open minds and roll along with the times. Nearly all of us, at least occasionally, take cell phone photos. The quality is much improved recently, especially with the introduction of the iPhone x, Samsung s8 and Note 8, and the Google Pixel. They are just plain fun for quick captures and to challenge ones vision. The 2x optical lens and RAW capture built in without an app are huge steps forward. When I posted my first few cellphone images on this site, I wondered how they would be received. I was happy that they were well accepted. The quality is not the same as a DSLR, but that is not to be expected given the sensor size and multipurpose device. You work within the limitations and use your imagination more creatively. A separate gallery would be nice and add another dimension to the site, IMO.

Joe

I've posted cel phone shots a number of times

E.J. Peiker wrote:

stevenmajor wrote: Recently, I to have seen many not good behaviors at NSN. I assume they are intentional. An effort to dumb down the site, make it more average and thus more accessible to more people...increasing participation to increase revenue, or a failed effort to preposition itself with better numbers so to fetch a higher selling price. What I infer is a very common business practice.  Mediocrity and the dollar are often good friends.

That is definitely not a conscious or intended thing.  Do you have some examples so that we are aware of the things that make you feel that way?

I too would love some examples of this. I agree with EJ that much of what is happening is due to social media like Facebook. They hve taken over the word of social medial and image sharing. That is the #1 reason that posting and commenting is down on NSN and everywhere else. Some parallel can be said for retail and Amazon.

FWIW the notion that we have dumbed down NSN intentionally to increase revenue is a baffling concept. Simply totally baffling to me that someone would even imagine that. 

E.J. Peiker wrote:A big part of the decline, in my opinion is the emergence of social media.  When this site started, there really wasn't a social media ecosphere where people posted photographs.  As more and more of people's lives and time spent on a computer went to social media sites, more and more pictures got posted there and that left less and less time for other sites with photos.  One of the major objectives of sites like Facebook is to addict the user to it and trying to make it essentially the only place people go to.  I can post the identical picture on FB as here and within an hour I could have 50 likes and 10 comments, I'd be lucky to get 10 views in an hour now.  As for viability of NSN, Greg is the only one that can comment definitively but in my opinion, that is tied much more to the store and to the workshop part of the business.

Agree E.J.
The value I find here at NSN these days is the technical knowledge of folks like you on equipment and processing etc that you just don't get with basic posts on FB.  I hope NSN remains a focal point for photographers for many years to come.

Paul Fusco wrote:

DChan wrote:

wdg wrote:...I don't bother posting photos anymore tho because of the lack of comments on most people's photos. ..

What constructive comments you could make on photos that are technically well-executed but boring ?

Would insightful comments would be more forthcoming if the poster includes more about what it took to get the shot?

Paul

Me? No.

Karl Egressy wrote:Thanks for coming in and expressing your opinion.
It's nice to see that you care.
Photography is a wonderful hobby and it is never boring.
Birds, mammals, and all the creatures and nature in general are always beautiful IMO.
(I don't do Facebook so I don't know much about it.)

You don't do Facebook?  I didn't do Facebook either until I wanted to see what was being discussed on Facebook pages that I was interested in. I found out that you needed a Facebook account first before you can even read what was on another Facebook page.  Clever marketing on Facebook's part.  We have xxx,xxx,xxx Facebook users.  Yeah, we force them to open an account before they can read any other Facebook page.  And the more Facebook users they can force to open a Facebook account, the more info that will benefit Facebook.  Data mining.  For those who are privacy conscious, one can always open a fake Facebook account.  Bob Smith from Vancouver when you're really from Guelph. Or open a real one but keep the Facebook page to a bare minimum and make it as private as possible (there are settings). 

If you don't have a Flickr account, open one. That is where many photographers are posting photos.  They have many different groups you can join. On some nature photography sharing websites, the most views you can get is maybe 300 max per image. On Flickr you can get several thousands eyeballs on a photo and up to 70,000+.  I'm talking about birds and animal type photos.

Good discussion Karl.

I completely understand where you're coming from.
I have been a member here for 4 1/2 years and I have been activly posting images throughout my whole membership. I almost always try to comment on at least 5 or more images every time I post one of my own. I feel it makes for a good sense of community and I know others appreciate getting comments and critiques on their images too. It's what a community like this is all about, learning and conversing with others, and I'm sure it's the reason that many new members join.
They are hoping to get good information from experienced photographers. That's what they're paying for, and if they don't get it, they will loose heart and slowly fade away. I feel that there could deffinity be more critiquing on this site and by the comments I am seeing on this thread, it sound like it would be appreciated by most.
If an image is soft or overexposed, call it out, and maybe look at the techs and offer some insight on how you might have tried to handle it and what solutions you have learned over the years. "Crank up the shutter speed in this situation and bump up the ISO to hopefully get a sharper image" I don't see enough of that here and I think many members are starving for exactly that. The NSN motto states " The resource for Nature Photographers".  The discussion forums are really good on this site and I enjoy them but the galleries are where people are submitting their images for comments and critique. It can't all be "great shot" because some aren't and they need to see that to become better and more aware of what and where they need to improve. Otherwise they will never learn much and the "Resource" really didn't make much of a difference in their photography. The other way I see some members handle a sub-par photo is just to not comment. Not that cool for a new member trying to learn. I think that a lot of members think that just as your mother taught you" If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all".  I don't think she was talking about helping and critiquing photos on a site like this though. Don't be afraid to say it, they will appreciate it, and if they get offended, then they weren't going to learn much from anybody anyway.
Many members have PMed me over the years and mentioned their appreciation on commenting and critiquing their images and then go into further detail about questions they have. They want to learn more and this should be the "resource" for that.
I also noticed a lot of comments on this thread about members including information about how they got the shot. I think it's a great idea and I enjoy doing this myself.
I sometimes feel as if I am being a blabbermouth but many members comment that they really appreciate the information about how the shot was captured and some of the challenges it took in the field and technical information given about the photo. Not that everyone needs to do this, but if more did I think it would be fun and definitely more informative and educational.
I know Karl feels the same way as I do about members that post images and never comment on others. Even if they post a Great image I refrain from commenting because I don't feel that it's right to not comment on others and I find them somewhat arrogant and conceited. This is a community, not a platform for one to showcase their images as if they were better than or above all that commenting stuff.. Granted that sometimes when we post an image we don't have time to comment because we have to race off to work or we have something to do but coming back later and commenting on some images keeps the community alive and healthy. If most everybody did this the community would be much more vibrant and Active but expecting that to happen is not realistic. There will always be members that just drop off their images and leave. It's just the nature of the beast but the more that we can promote them to be more active on the site, the more it will benefit everyone. 
I remember a few years ago when this site got pretty stagnant the management and moderators put up a notice stating 
that "everybody likes to get comments on their images and they would appreciate you commenting on 3 to 5 images yourself when you post"
That one statement was at the first post spot for a while and changed the site dramatically and it went from minimal comments to an active community again. 

Maybe people just need to hear it and realize it and they will become more active in the community.

I enjoyed this site and community very much and as some of you may know I am also a moderator on BPN and we have the exact same challenges over there also. We are talking about putting up a similar notice to keep the members aware that to be a community it takes everyone to participate that are actively posting
I agree with all the comments about Facebook and Flickr taking away from sites like this but I also feel that sites like this are the only real good way to get information and critiques from competent wildlife photographers. Much different than the 300 or 3000 likes on Facebook that might boost one's ego but will never take them any further in mastering their art.

Here is a related thread from 2016. Even then, the ideas were similar.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=260816

Joe

NSN is a big credit to itself and the nature photography World full stop!!!!!!!, but E.J is carrying this entire forum!, there are no if's and's or buts, if E.J didn't participate then NSN would completely fall apart........all I can say to the NSN powers that be....................................is too delete the freaks! ;-/

steve mackay wrote:NSN is a big credit to itself and the nature photography World full stop!!!!!!!, but E.J is carrying this entire forum!, there are no if's and's or buts, if E.J didn't participate then NSN would completely fall apart........all I can say to the NSN powers that be....................................is too delete the freaks!     ;-/

If you mean who I think you mean he's over on FM these days 

I love the 'bird on a stick' photos, find them beautiful to look at, like the cover of a magazine or a calendar. Why all the angst?

Fact is, I've always felt that such images were impossible to make unless you spent an awful lot of time with a very long lens in 'the bush' chasing them birds. I couldn't figure out how they were done. Now I know, after attending an excellent workshop last week with an NSN instructor. And so I look forward to an opportunity to create such photos myself.

So what if the whole world has such photos? I don't, and to me that's all that matters. I mean everyone knows the Taj Mahal is beautiful and you see pictures of it everywhere. Does that mean you wouldn't want to see it for yourself and when you do, you wouldn't take pictures and show them to your friends/family?

It is true, digital has changed photography as we know it. Gone are the days when it was the domain of a few fortunate ones who could afford expensive gear and even more expensive film. Now the poor of the world are quite capable of making beautiful images on their smartphones. Instead of lamenting the flood of photos in the world, we should celebrate the creativity this allows.

As for NSN, I have learned a lot from this place -  from EJ about cameras and the technical aspects of photography, from Royce about printers and printing and from Greg about the creative side of image making. Chaz is always able to come up with tips on  the best travel gear. I have enormous respect for all the pros here. Then there are so many others who pitch in with much valued advice. It is a humbling experience to be in such company. The discussions are way above what I see elsewhere. And, most importantly there is no patronizing. That was always my biggest problem with LL. Most people there think too much of themselves.

So, Please take a bow, all you guys who run this place and make it so educational, entertaining and finally so endearing a space for people like me to hang out.

Pradeep

This is an interesting topic that I've watched. I guess there are several reasons for it in my opinion.

[ul]
[li]There is some truth to the statement about social media. Basically, it is much better general platform for many folks. These days, the feeds can be customized for your liking - for example, sports, photography and politics (if that is your thing) can be seen on one platform. I am not sure this is great for everyone, but this is one reason for sure. [/li]
[li]There are workflow related reasons that make other platforms easier to use - for example, I use LR extensively for my website as well as posting photos for friends / family. There are plugins for Flickr, Facebook, Instagram etc. which make it super easy to share. No need to export the photo and then upload. Once a photo is processed with LR+PS, one push button and it is uploaded to the sites. It also allows me to organize them well on a single platform. [/li]
[li]My friends and family are on the social media platforms so I must share there. The reverse is not true. [/li]
[li]Other reasons being monotonous shots which are uninspiring.[/li]
[li]No REAL information about the shots. I don't really care about "Great shot" type comments on my photos.[/li]
[/ul]

That said, the other platforms are not necessarily the best for the following:
[ul]
[li]Sharing technical information and discussions regarding topics related to photography. I am sure there are "groups" on FB to discuss this, but for learning, I find that platform terrible. [/li]
[li]Finding information about trips (since I plan my own for the majority of time).[/li]
[li]Good advice on esoteric questions. [/li]
[/ul]

And then there is the good old lack of time. The truth is that there is simply very little time to do it all. With a professional (non photography ) career and family, it is incredibly hard to find time to comment on photos where I am not adding much value. I do enjoy the photos in these galleries, but choose not to comment for the most part and also don't post photos there. I try to comment on the general discussions like this one more because this is where I get a lot of my information.

Lastly, I do NOT think that NSN is being "dumbed down" at all. This is still one place that I come to for information and I always have for years. I also try to support the store with my business as much as I can, when I can. I have fond memories of my (seriously ill-prepared) 2008 (?) trip to Bosque with NSN and this site has been an integral part of my learning. I hope that NSN not only survives but thrives. I've always felt at home here (unlike some other forums which I won't name) and will continue to participate in.

In addition to a lot of stuff that's been said, NSN seems like it has become more and more of a bird photography site. While it has always tended to favor that, the disparity is getting larger. Just as a recent example, I posted an IR image that I had been wanting to take for a few years and finally got the opportunity to take here on NSN and a number of other places including a medium format site that I frequent since there is little interest in MF here on NSN. It has easily been one of my most successful photo in a number of places where I posted it, including a site that really is frequented by very high end medium format professionals. Here it got two comments. Also, there is some amazing stuff in the Travel and Culture forum. One could post an award winning shot that sells for thousands there and it would be lucky to get one comment, usually from a moderator. For whatever reason, NSN is becoming more and more niche to bird photography only and we have lost many truly great photographers of landscapes and travel photos because there simply isn't any commenting or feedback or anything on those photos. In my travels, it is very common, when I talk about NSN, to get comments like "oh yeah, that bird photography site..." Where am I going with all of this? It takes more than moderators to keep the site at a high level, it takes user participation. The moderators are just as dedicated and willing as ever...