Shooting panos from a high vantage point

I sometimes shoot panoramas, and I have a RRS extension bar that allows me to move my camera so the entrance pupil of the lens is essentially over the axis of rotation of my tripod head (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Pano-El ... Screw-Knob).  All the components have bubble levels associated with them, so I know I am level most of the time.  This works very well when I am shooting from the same level as the scene, such as being on a beach.

I am not sure how to handle a pano from a vantage point of elevation, where I am looking down on the scene such as when atop a mountain overlooking a valley.  Under these conditions, when images are stitched (I am admittedly not using the best tool for this – I am using the stitching feature in PS CS5), the result is very disappointing almost all the time.  To compensate, frequently, I either take vertical images to ensure I capture all the components in the scene, or move to a wider angle lens, which is fraught with its own problems.

Is the only true solution to use a gimbal head?  TIA.

If you are using a ballhead and it is leveled, e.g. when using a leveling base, you can simply use the pano feature of the ballhead. To level the camera itself, you can use one of the levels that attach to the flash shoe. They can level both side to side and back and forth, so you would use the side to side to level the camera parallel to the pano rotation. I hope this is what you are needing advice on. Otherwise, please give more info.

Joe

Here is a link to a level like I am referring to:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... h_Hot.html

Joe

Another thing to try would be to use a tilt-shift lens with your camera body in portrait orientation. With the tripod, head, and rail leveled throughout its intended arc of rotation, simply shift (not tilt) the lens downward to cover the desired field of view. The resulting panned frames should stitch together fairly easily.

Another suggestion would be a head similar to these:

http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages ... -orig.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360-degree-Full ... 0740328708

I have the Kaidan, but have never used it. It is similar to a gimbal and has indexing for degrees of view. There are others on eBay listed at the bottom of the page linked above. Sorry for the long link, but I can't do it any other way from an iPad.

Joe

I believe you'll need something that pans in the vertical direction.

Another suggestion would be a head similar to these:

http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages ... -orig.html

Head on eBay

I have the Kaidan Quick Pan III, but have never used it. It is similar to a gimbal and has indexing adjustable for different angles of view.
I will try to eliminate the above duplicate post if I can. It is not easy with an iPad, so I am posting this from desktop.

Joe

A bubble level doesn't solve the issue of getting a good pano when having to point the camera down or up. There are rigs especially designed for this but expensive. It is an expansion of the starter pano RRS gear that you already have:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Multi-Row-Pano-Package

Martin 095 wrote:I sometimes shoot panoramas, and I have a RRS extension bar that allows me to move my camera so the entrance pupil of the lens is essentially over the axis of rotation of my tripod head (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Pano-El ... Screw-Knob).  All the components have bubble levels associated with them, so I know I am level most of the time.  This works very well when I am shooting from the same level as the scene, such as being on a beach.

I am not sure how to handle a pano from a vantage point of elevation, where I am looking down on the scene such as when atop a mountain overlooking a valley.  Under these conditions, when images are stitched (I am admittedly not using the best tool for this – I am using the stitching feature in PS CS5), the result is very disappointing almost all the time.  To compensate, frequently, I either take vertical images to ensure I capture all the components in the scene, or move to a wider angle lens, which is fraught with its own problems.

Is the only true solution to use a gimbal head?  TIA.

I shoot quite a bit of stitched panos and have learned the following: I always shoot with a level tripod and head, using a RRS leveling base for time saving initial leveling. I also use a RRS long plate (like you described) to get the correct Nodal point (for each lens used), shoot in manual everything, pretty much always shoot in the vertical format (using a "L" bracket on the camera) of the lens, and overlap enough for a good stitch. I used to use CS6, but last year I had a revelation because I started using PhotoShop CC with it's new stitch program, and wow, what a difference! PhotoShop CC does a much better job, and upon one occasion it did a remarkable job. I was photographing a Beaver lodge and cache and because of the layout of the whole scene I had to be literally at the foot of the bank lodge and use a 24mm lens (on a FF body) to achieve the composition (14 frames) I needed. In CS6 I ended up with a non usable stitch result. But 6 months later I tried using the new CC stitch program and the difference was amazing! The original stitch was all over the place and no matter which method I tried, none of them were successful. PhotoShop CC got it correct on the first try! Every frame I entered into the stitch was in itself distorted, but CC figured it out. After you complete the stitch you can then correct distortion with a slider - CS6 didn't have that available. Give it a try. It's in Lightroom too I assume.

E.J. Peiker wrote:A bubble level doesn't solve the issue of getting a good pano when having to point the camera down or up.  There are rigs especially designed for this but expensive.  It is an expansion of the starter pano RRS gear that you already have:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Multi-Row-Pano-Package

Care to explain why the bubble level won't work? The level is designed to work at an angle, as well as on the level. The bubble floats within the tube, which has lines scribed around the barrel. If the camera is leveled side to side parallel to the pano direction (horizontal) when at an downward or upward angle with a ball head, it will maintain that level when panned with the ballhead base.
The links I provided are for heads as you described. The ones on eBay are only $150-175.

Joe

SantaFeJoe wrote:

E.J. Peiker wrote:A bubble level doesn't solve the issue of getting a good pano when having to point the camera down or up.  There are rigs especially designed for this but expensive.  It is an expansion of the starter pano RRS gear that you already have:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Multi-Row-Pano-Package

Care to explain why the bubble level won't work? The level is designed to work at an angle, as well as on the level. The bubble floats within the tube, which has lines scribed around the barrel. If the camera is leveled side to side parallel to the pano direction (horizontal) when at an downward or upward angle with a ball head, it will maintain that level when panned with the ballhead base.
The links I provided are for heads as you described. The ones on eBay are only $150-175.

Joe

Because if you point the camera up or down, as you move from left to right, even with adjusting the camera each time to keep it level you are moving the camera through an arc rather than in a straight horizontal line.  A multi-row panorama rig like those linked above from various manufacturers solves that problem.  Now if you used something like a horizontal slider like what a lot of time laps photographers and videographers use, then yes it would work, but not if you mount the lens on a ballhead without a multi-row pano rig.

E.J. Peiker wrote:

SantaFeJoe wrote:

E.J. Peiker wrote:A bubble level doesn't solve the issue of getting a good pano when having to point the camera down or up.  There are rigs especially designed for this but expensive.  It is an expansion of the starter pano RRS gear that you already have:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Multi-Row-Pano-Package

Care to explain why the bubble level won't work? The level is designed to work at an angle, as well as on the level. The bubble floats within the tube, which has lines scribed around the barrel. If the camera is leveled side to side parallel to the pano direction (horizontal) when at an downward or upward angle with a ball head, it will maintain that level when panned with the ballhead base.
The links I provided are for heads as you described. The ones on eBay are only $150-175.

Joe

Because if you point the camera up or down, as you move from left to right, even with adjusting the camera each time to keep it level you are moving the camera through an arc rather than in a straight horizontal line.  

I disagree. I have the same rig as the OP and once the camera is leveled side to side and locked down with the ballhead leveled (at the base), the camera follows a straight line horizontally with the panoramic base of the ballhead. No need to level the camera as it swings because it stays level. If you are using the ball, or a pano head (e.g. the one the OP has) attached to the top of the ball, to rotate the camera, what you say is true, but not if you use the base of the ball. It is really no different than using the base of one of the pano rigs because the rotation is at the base, while the camera sensor stays at a fixed position parallel to the direction the base is rotating. Nodal point will have to be adjusted forward or backward, depending on upward or downward angle, as well. I do this often with my phone attached to a tripod and get 360 degree panos that are perfectly level across the scene, even when pointed up or down. If I can only find that darned level that keeps hiding itself from me, I will post images to prove my point.

Joe

Yeah, you don't need a full on 2-axis (multi-row) pano rig for the situation Martin describes. You just need to be able to level the base of the ballhead below where it rotates. I have an Acratech leveling base installed beneath my RRS BH-55, and it works perfectly for the situation here. You level the ballhead on top of the leveling base, using the leveling base's own bubble level. Then you tilt the camera down (or up) on the ballhead to place the foreground and horizon where you want them, leveling the camera against any left-right tilt, using another level on the ballhead or on the camera. (Use a nodal rail like normal, if needed.) Then you rotate the camera horizontally using the ballhead's rotating base. The horizon comes out flat because the axis of rotation is true vertical, and the camera is not rising & dipping as it rotates.

This is a lighter weight, more compact and less cumbersome alternative to using a full 2-axis pano rig. It's sufficient for single-row pano's of all types, and simpler multi-row jobs especially when paired with a good stitching app like Autopano that can handle some variability in the relative positions of the frames in the row sets.

Another thought. As wildlife photographers, we seem to have tunnel vision about using ballheads. A simple pan and tilt head leveled as above is very likely even easier to use, since it can be leveled side to side when vertical. It will maintain that side to side level when tilted, so then it is mostly a matter of adjusting nodal point (in this case, it must be the central part of the lens at nodal point, not the top or bottom of the lens body at nodal point) to be above the axis of rotation to match the tilt. The leveling base is still critical to having the vertical axis of rotation of the head plumb vertically.

Joe

If you tilt the camera down on a ballhead, regardless of where the rotation occurs, above or below the ball, how does the camera not draw an arc when rotating it? Clearly I am missing something here....

E.J. Peiker wrote:If you tilt the camera down on a ballhead, regardless of where the rotation occurs, above or below the ball, how does the camera not draw an arc when rotating it?  Clearly I am missing something here....

Here are some quick shots I took for you. They include shots of the tripod leveling base showing level, the ballhead positions around the pano base of the head with a followup level shot of the virtual level on the LCD after each, the way the camera is positioned on the ballhead and the levels on the pano head and nodal slide to show how far off level those levels are. My plastic level is still hiding from me!!!  It only follows a horizontal arc with no up and down arc. Sorry I had to post so many images, but I think they make a point. If you think about it, the fancy pano heads work virtually the same way. I think the critical thing is where the nodal point (at the center vertically of lens barrel when shooting at an angle) is located. It must be directly above the vertical axis of the ballhead. As you tilt the camera/lens, the nodal point moves forward or backward from where it is located when the camera is horizontally positioned.
Joe

The important thing that Joe is stating has all to do with the Nodal point (or No Parallax Point) and keeping everything from the tripod to the camera level. Once you set up the correct Nodal point for each lens (this can be done on your kitchen table using 2 vertical objects spaced out) you will always have a perfect axis to pan the head regardless if it's a ball head, pan tilt head, or if it's a Gimbal. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you will need a Nodal bracket (I use RRS Nodal slide plate #MCR-CLII) and an "L" bracket (for any non-collared lenses). The correct axis will be somewhere down the lens barrel, not at the camera body. A good short tutorial from RRS on the Nodal, or No Parallax Point is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzWbGM8AU8s This video should explain everything clearly. 

Mark, we aren't talking about a panorama where everything is leveled in all axis.  The original question was about a panorama where the camera is tilted down into a valley from up high.  I get all that you wrote and yes you can make the horizon stay level but the camera still moves through an arc even though the horizon is staying level if you point it downward.  I know all about nodal points and have written articles on it.  The nodal point on a true horizontal panning pano is required to keep the relative position of the foreground and background consistent from frame to frame.  That is a completely different question then how I interpreted what was being asked.  The point of the original question , in my mind, was about how to do it when you are tilting the camera down.  In that situation, you are still moving the camera on a single axis and if that axis is tilted, as it would be if you are doing a panorama where the camera is pointing down, it will move through an arc.

Joe, your example shows a camera that is level in all axis but the question, as I understood it, was about getting a perfect frame to frame alignment and stitch when the pitch axis is not level, specifically pointed down.  In other words, your horizon could not be going through the center of your artificial horizon as it is in your example.  I see absolutely no physically possible way to pivot on a single axis that is not level in all axis and not draw an arc.  Don't get me wrong, I am very open to being convinced that I am wrong but your pictures do nothing to convince me.  I guess I would need to see a video where you pan the camera from left to right with it pointed down where the camera does not move through an arc - it simply makes no sense to me.

It is possible that I misinterpreted the question and he is actually asking about keeping the foreground and background in the same relative position with the camera level but I did not assume that since he is using a nodal slider so I assumed he knows how to set up the camera to do that and was asking how to deal with it if the camera has to be pointed downward.  He did specifically say that he was looking down on the scene...

E.J.
The camera is not level in all axis, as evidenced by the levels on the pano head atop the ball head and the nodal slide. It is pointing downward quite a bit. All I can say is to try it for yourself in the manner I described above and you will see. Shoot images that way and then you will know if they arc.
Joe

SantaFeJoe wrote:E.J.
The camera is not level in all axis, as evidenced by the levels on the pano head atop the ball head and the nodal slide. It is pointing downward quite a bit.  All I can say is to try it for yourself in the manner I described above and you will see. Shoot images that way and then you will know if they arc.
Joe

You still get frames that are not aligned horizontally, specifically the frames at the ends are higher up than the frame in the center.  Certainly you can make that work but you do have to account for it.