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by Mike in O on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:11 pm
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Paul Fusco wrote:The NATGEO program showed how biologists were able to prove that the mysterious dramatic population decline of elk in recent years was not due to wolf reintroduction which was the speculation, but the elk population decline was due to fawn depredation by grizzlys. BUT that grizzly behavior was caused by the absence of cutthroat trout, a major food source for bears, because the trout have been out competed by steelhead. The steelhead were released illegally by humans into Lake Yellowstone and had the effect of wiping out a major food source for the bears making them have to seek alternate sources of protein in spring, elk fawns. Speculation about who released the bigger steelhead into the lake center on recreational fishermen and fishing guides in the region.

Paul
Lake trout were released into the lake, not steelhead which is an ocean going rainbow trout.
 

by Paul Fusco on Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:30 pm
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Mike in O wrote:
Paul Fusco wrote:The NATGEO program showed how biologists were able to prove that the mysterious dramatic population decline of elk in recent years was not due to wolf reintroduction which was the speculation, but the elk population decline was due to fawn depredation by grizzlys. BUT that grizzly behavior was caused by the absence of cutthroat trout, a major food source for bears, because the trout have been out competed by steelhead. The steelhead were released illegally by humans into Lake Yellowstone and had the effect of wiping out a major food source for the bears making them have to seek alternate sources of protein in spring, elk fawns. Speculation about who released the bigger steelhead into the lake center on recreational fishermen and fishing guides in the region.

Paul
Lake trout were released into the lake, not steelhead which is an ocean going rainbow trout.
Thank you, Mike. I meant lake trout. 
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by dougc on Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:31 am
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So, how do we spin this to make it the fault of "Trophy Hunters"?:):):)
 

by Paul Fusco on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:28 am
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dougc wrote:So, how do we spin this to make it the fault of "Trophy Hunters"?:):):)
I don't see that connection.

if we are talking about the declining Yellowstone elk population, it can be directly attributed to a griz population that has learned to adapt to a food source shortage. And that food source shortage has been proven to be caused by people, so in effect, the declining elk population is a result of human changes to the ecosystem, albiet unintentional. Keep in mind that many people have been attributing the elk decline to reintroduced wolves.

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by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:34 am
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The bottom line is that most hunters do not get it, or they just do not care about anything other than taking.   I have been involved in this my entire life, and that is the bottom line.   

And you would not be smiling about this if you did get it and/or cared about something other than taking.   I have yet to talk to one single hunter who does.  But I am still searching.  I still hold hope.   Just one hunter who "sees" it can start to change the whole bunch.

I leave you with two things:

1.  The line is drawn on hunters whining that "our elk" are being taken by the bears.  There can be no argument that historically, elk calves are part of the diet of any bear species whose range overlaps the elk.  If this becomes an issue with elk hunters, we will fight this one and we will not lose this one.  
2.  Go to my wolf post today to see why I am high on the Center for Biological Diversity.  

When I do donate, it is to the CBD.  And this is why; i.e. a big reward offered.  I grew up in a hunting family.  I know hunters.  I talk to hunters.  I want a leader in the hunting community as an ally.  I am fed up with the kind of stuff in this latest wolf post.  What causes this is a selfish, little boy, clan attitude with a bunch of ignorance thrown in.  

 
 

by dougc on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:16 pm
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Once again you are blaming virtually every hunter for the acts committed by a few individuals. There are bad apples in every group but you seem, as before, to want to condemn the entire group.
 

by Mike in O on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:42 pm
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A lot of predator control is not the result of hunters but of Western culture that doesn't recognize that the authority of the Federal Government to manage the lands which they own. The state of Utah seems to be the center of this thought (Malheur take over). Western states especially in the inter mountain region have had a constant Sage Brush Rebellion with tones of racism, and extreme right wing rhetoric.
 

by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:55 pm
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dougc wrote:So, how do we spin this to make it the fault of "Trophy Hunters"?:):):)
There is no spin.   Trophy hunting is about ego.  That is all it is about.  Do you agree?

So...when all biological and social factors are considered, it is the reasonable conclusion of those who are interested in other than the stroking of their ego , that there is no place for trophy hunting of these apex predators....ANYMORE.   They have been squeezed so much over the last century and a half that there is no more room for killing them simply for the purpose of some guy to mount the bear on a pedestal for his ego.  Again....EGO is the sole reason for trophy hunting.  

1.  Do you agree that regarding these bears, ego would be the sole reason for their trophy hunting ?      

The bears, though omnivores, are included among the apex predators.  A few of those factors are that they have a low reproductive potential, huge home ranges and man has extirpated them from most of their historical range in lower NA.  Set on wiping out the grizzly, California shot the last one around the early 20's and now proudly fly it on their state flag.  

All I am saying is that there is no place anymore for trophy hunting of these particular animals.    

So I am confused by your responses.  What could be funny to you about this?    

2.  Do you feel that we can justify trophy hunting this Grizzly bear (Ursus arctos? that disperses from Yellowstone NP and if so, please give the rationale to support your convictions?

Your's is the last comment.  I promise to read it.  But I will have no further comment...no reply.  I have other things to do.  :)  

Thank you.





    
 

by Bart40 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:13 am
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dougc wrote:Yes, modern day American hunters are well known for wiping out entire species of animal that are considered game animals. Oh wait, can you name even ONE game animal that has become extinct in the last 50 years due to reckless hunting by licensed hunters? I think not.

Let the flames begin.
Go to Africa in about 5-10 years and you won't find any Giraffe anymore..
 

by dougc on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:48 am
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Because we must save the elephants and when their numbers are too high, giraffes suffer as elephants are incredibly destructive. They tear down every tree in sight and not just for food, they do it for no reason whatever. Read the book "Mahoboh" by Ron Thomson if you'd like to learn something about game management in Africa.

People have been preaching doom and gloom about Africa for the last century and it hasn't happened yet. Kenya banned hunting in the '70's and look what it got them...
 

by dougc on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:52 am
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"Go to Africa in about 5-10 years and you won't find any Giraffe anymore.."

How much would you care to wager on this? I'll accept your bet...
 

by Paul Fusco on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:10 pm
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Giraffe populations are down 40% in just the last 20 years, due primarily to poaching.
Lion populations are down 90% since 1975.
Elephant populations are down 70% since 1980.
Black rhino poulations are down 98% since 1960.
African vulture populations are down to critical (and likely unrecoverable) levels, due entirely to poisoning by poachers.

LIONS:
According to the USFWS, the population of African lions is at approximately 20,000. Of those about 3,000 are adult males. The annual trophy hunting take has been averaging 700 per year. The sustainability for this kind of take is highly questionable and there is a high probability that it is a contributing factor to their rapid population decline.
Lions have a complex social behavior. Adult male lions are protectors of the family groups, the prides, and if a pride patriarch is removed from the population a less dominant male will take over the pride. But the new patriarch will kill his predecessors young in order to bring the females into estrus, which results in lowered recruitment of young lions into the population. The removal of dominant males from the lion social structure has the affect of disrupting their society in areas where lion hunting occurs.
Added to the other threats affecting lions, trophy hunting at current levels is unsustainable.

The laws regarding trophy hunting are different in each African country. In some places trophy hunting has resulted in responsible revenue and conservation management. In others, trophy/safari hunting has resulted in corruption and decimation of animal populations. This why Kenya (and other countries) have banned trophy hunting.

Maybe in 5-10 years you will still be able to find giraffe, but it ain't gettin' easier.

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by PopeShawnPaul on Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:32 am
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walkinman wrote:
On the other hand, can you name even one game animal that benefitted in the last 50 years (or ever) due to hunting by trophy hunters? Can you suggest how trophy hunting of a vulnerable species like the grizzly bear, now reduced to living in something like 1% of its former range (in the Lower 48) might benefit anyone or anything other than the ego of someone wanting a rug or a wall hanger? 
Really...?

Shiras moose
California bighorn
Desert bighorn 
Rocky Mountain bighorn 
Turkeys
Mountain goats
Rocky Mountain elk
Whitetail deer
Tule elk

Millions are raised each year for sheep and their efforts often support other species.  Sheep is the most amazing example of conservation by sportsmen.  Not to mention there would be no habitat without sportsmen.  Trophy hunting to hunters means shoot the oldest animal past his breeding prime so as not to hurt the species/population.  There is some perception a trophy Hunter is a rich guy in a suit that takes the head and doesn't eat the animal.  I've never met anyone like that but they may exist.  Let science and biologists manage and determine what is appropriate.  Not a social media petition fraught with problems.
www.shawnmccully.com
 

by Mike in O on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:07 am
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PopeShawnPaul wrote:
walkinman wrote:
On the other hand, can you name even one game animal that benefitted in the last 50 years (or ever) due to hunting by trophy hunters? Can you suggest how trophy hunting of a vulnerable species like the grizzly bear, now reduced to living in something like 1% of its former range (in the Lower 48) might benefit anyone or anything other than the ego of someone wanting a rug or a wall hanger? 
Really...?

Shiras moose
California bighorn
Desert bighorn 
Rocky Mountain bighorn 
Turkeys
Mountain goats
Rocky Mountain elk
Whitetail deer
Tule elk

Millions are raised each year for sheep and their efforts often support other species.  Sheep is the most amazing example of conservation by sportsmen.  Not to mention there would be no habitat without sportsmen.  Trophy hunting to hunters means shoot the oldest animal past his breeding prime so as not to hurt the species/population.  There is some perception a trophy Hunter is a rich guy in a suit that takes the head and doesn't eat the animal.  I've never met anyone like that but they may exist.  Let science and biologists manage and determine what is appropriate.  Not a social media petition fraught with problems.
Why is it in Oregon that yearling and 2 year old male Elk do all the breeding because many of the branch antlered are hanging in the garage?  Why has the average size of Mule deer shot during hunting season dropped so dramatically over the last few decades?  Oregon Fish and Wildlife is aware of the problem with trophy hunting and have taken steps to alleviate the norm.  It is hard for many hunters to brag about the forked horn they got when they would rather talk about points on Boone and Crockett scale.  
 

by Bob Boner on Thu May 04, 2017 12:06 pm
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The link for signing the petition didn't work for me. Any suggestions?
Bob Boner
 

by Andrew_5488 on Thu May 04, 2017 12:35 pm
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Mike in O wrote:
walkinman wrote:
dougc wrote:Yes, modern day American hunters are well known for wiping out entire species of animal that are considered game animals. Oh wait, can you name even ONE game animal that has become extinct in the last 50 years due to reckless hunting by licensed hunters? I think not.

Let the flames begin.
Hunters were still shooting the few remaining wolves in the US in the 60's. The ESA was enacted in 1973 and that's the primary reason why animals have no longer been driven extinct in this country by game hunters. But trophy hunting can have pronounced impacts on populations, and particularly vulnerable species with limited available range, such as the Grizzlies in the lower 48. Were trophy hunting of the polar bear not banned under the MMPA, we could in all probability add them to the list. 

On the other hand, can you name even one game animal that benefitted in the last 50 years (or ever) due to hunting by trophy hunters? Can you suggest how trophy hunting of a vulnerable species like the grizzly bear, now reduced to living in something like 1% of its former range (in the Lower 48) might benefit anyone or anything other than the ego of someone wanting a rug or a wall hanger? 
I am anti hunting but lets give the guys a break...through licence fees and gun and ammo taxes, Mountain goats, Elk, Columbia White tail deer, and Sheep  extinct because of hunting are now roaming Oregon's mountains again.  Of course, the trophy hunters target the fittest of said species and constantly weaken the gene pool.
Give the guys a break ?
Why ?
Unless you're a native living somewhere up north or somebody in lower 48 living in a middle of nowhere,
there's really no need for you to hunt. For most of population, we can buy our food quite easily these days.
And let's call it what it is - killing. You're not hunting,you're killing animals. You're not "harvesting", you're killing.
You're not a "sportsmen", you're a killer.
And you're doing it because you LIKE doing it.
Basically there's something wrong with you and you should get yourself checked out (or locked up for extensive period of time).
Somebody should change duck stamps to psychopath stamps.
 

by Andrew_5488 on Thu May 04, 2017 12:39 pm
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Bob Boner wrote:The link for signing the petition didn't work for me. Any suggestions?
Try again. I have no problems connecting.
Maybe there's outage on your uplink.
 

by dougc on Sat May 06, 2017 12:51 pm
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Andrew_5488 wrote:
Mike in O wrote:
walkinman wrote:
dougc wrote:Yes, modern day American hunters are well known for wiping out entire species of animal that are considered game animals. Oh wait, can you name even ONE game animal that has become extinct in the last 50 years due to reckless hunting by licensed hunters? I think not.

Let the flames begin.
Hunters were still shooting the few remaining wolves in the US in the 60's. The ESA was enacted in 1973 and that's the primary reason why animals have no longer been driven extinct in this country by game hunters. But trophy hunting can have pronounced impacts on populations, and particularly vulnerable species with limited available range, such as the Grizzlies in the lower 48. Were trophy hunting of the polar bear not banned under the MMPA, we could in all probability add them to the list. 

On the other hand, can you name even one game animal that benefitted in the last 50 years (or ever) due to hunting by trophy hunters? Can you suggest how trophy hunting of a vulnerable species like the grizzly bear, now reduced to living in something like 1% of its former range (in the Lower 48) might benefit anyone or anything other than the ego of someone wanting a rug or a wall hanger? 
I am anti hunting but lets give the guys a break...through licence fees and gun and ammo taxes, Mountain goats, Elk, Columbia White tail deer, and Sheep  extinct because of hunting are now roaming Oregon's mountains again.  Of course, the trophy hunters target the fittest of said species and constantly weaken the gene pool.
Give the guys a break ?
Why ?
Unless you're a native living somewhere up north or somebody in lower 48 living in a middle of nowhere,
there's really no need for you to hunt. For most of population, we can buy our food quite easily these days.
And let's call it what it is - killing. You're not hunting,you're killing animals. You're not "harvesting", you're killing.
You're not a "sportsmen", you're a killer.
And you're doing it because you LIKE doing it.
Basically there's something wrong with you and you should get yourself checked out (or locked up for extensive period of time).
Somebody should change duck stamps to psychopath stamps.
So as long as someone else raises, kills, slaughters and packages your meat it's all okay? Visit a slaughterhouse sometime and then go dig into your juicy steak or hot dogs. 
 

by Mike in O on Sun May 07, 2017 6:41 pm
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dougc wrote:
Andrew_5488 wrote:
Mike in O wrote:
walkinman wrote:
dougc wrote:Yes, modern day American hunters are well known for wiping out entire species of animal that are considered game animals. Oh wait, can you name even ONE game animal that has become extinct in the last 50 years due to reckless hunting by licensed hunters? I think not.

Let the flames begin.
Hunters were still shooting the few remaining wolves in the US in the 60's. The ESA was enacted in 1973 and that's the primary reason why animals have no longer been driven extinct in this country by game hunters. But trophy hunting can have pronounced impacts on populations, and particularly vulnerable species with limited available range, such as the Grizzlies in the lower 48. Were trophy hunting of the polar bear not banned under the MMPA, we could in all probability add them to the list. 

On the other hand, can you name even one game animal that benefitted in the last 50 years (or ever) due to hunting by trophy hunters? Can you suggest how trophy hunting of a vulnerable species like the grizzly bear, now reduced to living in something like 1% of its former range (in the Lower 48) might benefit anyone or anything other than the ego of someone wanting a rug or a wall hanger? 
I am anti hunting but lets give the guys a break...through licence fees and gun and ammo taxes, Mountain goats, Elk, Columbia White tail deer, and Sheep  extinct because of hunting are now roaming Oregon's mountains again.  Of course, the trophy hunters target the fittest of said species and constantly weaken the gene pool.
Give the guys a break ?
Why ?
Unless you're a native living somewhere up north or somebody in lower 48 living in a middle of nowhere,
there's really no need for you to hunt. For most of population, we can buy our food quite easily these days.
And let's call it what it is - killing. You're not hunting,you're killing animals. You're not "harvesting", you're killing.
You're not a "sportsmen", you're a killer.
And you're doing it because you LIKE doing it.
Basically there's something wrong with you and you should get yourself checked out (or locked up for extensive period of time).
Somebody should change duck stamps to psychopath stamps.
So as long as someone else raises, kills, slaughters and packages your meat it's all okay? Visit a slaughterhouse sometime and then go dig into your juicy steak or hot dogs. 
I agree this is a fun thing to do...we used to have a horse slaughtering plant (the last in the US, owned by the French, burned down by peta)) and would always go there to see the action along with the other weirdos, really wanted to make me a hunter.
 

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