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by Greg Downing on Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:53 am
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Tom Grey wrote:OK, I'm still a flash novice, and here's how I do it (birds) -- I'd love advice, either here or by way of reference to a handy source:

Shootiing with Rebel and 550EX, with BB on unless I'm close (inside 15 ft), for fill, I just shoot with camera in AV, flash in HSS, flash zoom at 50 ft as BB recommends, flash compensation set at -1 as per Morris book rec. (When I use flash for main, I just put the camera into program, again as per Morris.)

For fill, why is camera in M better -- why shouldn't I use the shutter speed the meter gives me in AV, subject to whatever exposure compensation I dial based on ordinary (non-flash) criteria?

I'm going to replace my Rebel with a 20D, so I'll soon get whatever advantage ETTL-2 has.
Because AV can leave you guessing and can be affected by a lot of different things. You can watch the shutter speed change in AV as the bird moves positions in the frame and as the background changes. For instance lets say you are following a sanderling in nice light with crashing waves in the background. The background will have the meter bouncing all over the place as the background changes from bright (waves crashing) to dark (waves receding). Finding the right exposure for the bird and locking it in manually allows you the freedom of not worrying about the background changing the exposure on you.

Back to manual flash:

Here are a few examples and the appropiate settings:

Bird at 30':

Putting the flash in Manual mode with the distance scale to 30' would give you full flash without the beamer. Adding the beamer you then assume a range of two additional stops, so backing off so that the distance scale reads 15' (2 stops) will again give you full flash. Back off again 2 stops to 7' and you have a perfect fill flash of -2 stops which totally ignores subject reflectivity and background etc. Predictable consistent results can now be achieved.

More examples:

Bird at 30' and you want a -2 fill effect:

With beamer -2 fill is 7' on the scale for a bird at 30' (4 stops down, 2 for the beamer and 2 for the fill effect).

Bird at 20' with beamer and -2 stops fill would be 5' on the scale (again 4 stops; 2 for the beamer and 2 for the flash reduction for fill).

Bird at 20' with beamer full (flash as main) would be 10' on the scale (2 stops for the beamer, full flash requires no additional reduction).

Bird at 40' with beamer and -1 fill flash would be 15' on the scale (3 stops, 2 for the beamer and 1 for the fill reduction).

Bird at 60' without beamer and full flash would be 60' on the scale, same bird, same distance and -1 fill would be 40' on the scale. Slap the beamer on (same bird, same distance) and that same -1 fill would be 20' on the scale. -2 would be 10' on the scale and so on.

Jsut rememer the distance scale is for full flash and with beamer attached simply count 2 stops back on the scale, then count back on the scale whatever amount of reduction for fill you desire.

A little practice and it becomes second nature and a lot easier than trying to guess based on subject tonality etc. All you need to know is how much flash you want and what your distance is.

ETTL and iTTL does not apply!
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by Greg Downing on Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:55 am
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E.J. Peiker wrote:
Greg Downing wrote:With ETTL it would be around -1 2/3 (given it will reach that far in HSS mode) but the rub is that the flash can be fooled by the background (depending on how big the bird is) and the tones on the bird which can sometimes result in unpredictable results. See next post....
BTW, ETTL2 is not fooled like this because it uses the distance setting of the lens in the calculation and shuts down the metering segments around the edge of the frame for the purposes of flash output calculation. The consistency is significantly better due to this.
Yes, but does it not also assume the subject is in the center of the frame and is it not still affected by subject tonality, leaving you to figure that out on your own?
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by Dick Ginkowski on Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:58 am
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Greg Downing wrote:
Tom Grey wrote:OK, I'm still a flash novice, and here's how I do it (birds) -- I'd love advice, either here or by way of reference to a handy source:

Shootiing with Rebel and 550EX, with BB on unless I'm close (inside 15 ft), for fill, I just shoot with camera in AV, flash in HSS, flash zoom at 50 ft as BB recommends, flash compensation set at -1 as per Morris book rec. (When I use flash for main, I just put the camera into program, again as per Morris.)

For fill, why is camera in M better -- why shouldn't I use the shutter speed the meter gives me in AV, subject to whatever exposure compensation I dial based on ordinary (non-flash) criteria?

I'm going to replace my Rebel with a 20D, so I'll soon get whatever advantage ETTL-2 has.
Because AV can leave you guessing and can be affected by a lot of different things. You can watch the shutter speed change in AV as the bird moves positions in the frame and as the background changes. For instance lets say you are following a sanderling in nice light with crashing waves in the background. The background will have the meter bouncing all over the place as the background changes from bright (waves crashing) to dark (waves receding). Finding the right exposure for the bird and locking it in manually allows you the freedom of not worrying about the background changing the exposure on you.

Back to manual flash:

Here are a few examples and the appropiate settings:

Bird at 30':

Putting the flash in Manual mode with the distance scale to 30' would give you full flash without the beamer. Adding the beamer you then assume a range of two additional stops, so backing off so that the distance scale reads 15' (2 stops) will again give you full flash. Back off again 2 stops to 7' and you have a perfect fill flash of -2 stops which totally ignores subject reflectivity and background etc. Predictable consistent results can now be achieved.

More examples:

Bird at 30' and you want a -2 fill effect:

With beamer -2 fill is 7' on the scale for a bird at 30' (4 stops down, 2 for the beamer and 2 for the fill effect).

Bird at 20' with beamer and -2 stops fill would be 5' on the scale (again 4 stops; 2 for the beamer and 2 for the flash reduction for fill).

Bird at 20' with beamer full (flash as main) would be 10' on the scale (2 stops for the beamer, full flash requires no additional reduction).

Bird at 40' with beamer and -1 fill flash would be 15' on the scale (3 stops, 2 for the beamer and 1 for the fill reduction).

Bird at 60' without beamer and full flash would be 60' on the scale, same bird, same distance and -1 fill would be 40' on the scale. Slap the beamer on (same bird, same distance) and that same -1 fill would be 20' on the scale. -2 would be 10' on the scale and so on.

Jsut rememer the distance scale is for full flash and with beamer attached simply count 2 stops back on the scale, then count back on the scale whatever amount of reduction for fill you desire.

A little practice and it becomes second nature and a lot easier than trying to guess based on subject tonality etc. All you need to know is how much flash you want and what your distance is.

ETTL and iTTL does not apply!
Sounds like I need to have a laptop and Excel running in the field just to make these calculations! :roll: :twisted:
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by Greg Downing on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:01 am
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Dick, it's so easy! All you need is a flash with a distance scale.
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by Chas on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:02 am
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Griffin wrote:
Greg Downing wrote:When at a fixed distance from your subject manual flash rocks and is, by far, the most consistent and reliable way to do it. I will never shoot ETTL flash again when shooting birds at a blind etc. I still use the beamer myself and simply account for two extra stops it adds to the range. Since I use manual flash in HSS quite often the beamer is a necessary accessory much of the time. With modern flash units you need not learn guide number calculations etc, but simply use the distance scale on the flash. Subtract two stops (or halve the distance) and you have a nice fill flash effect that is consistent 100% of the time.
Thank you Greg, something to try out this weekend. :)

I wish to ask to see if I get yours right:

Do I need to subtract 2 stops off the flash reading when shooting in HSS mode with Better Beamer on?


Griffin.
Griffin, you do not deduct two stops per se off the flash, but rather decrease the power output using the power ratio control to compensate for the beamers approximate 2 stop effective increase in output. When using the beamer, you need only focus the lens on your subject, read the distance off the lens and set/match the flash (manual mode) power ratio via select/set - to 1/2 the flash to subject distance with the aperture in use. This will provide balanced fill (matching the ambient), further reduction in power (such as 1/8 to 1/16) can be accomplished in one stop increments using the select/set and - control on the flash.

Without the beamer (manual mode) simply match the distance with the aperture for balanced fill.

Best,

Chas
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Last edited by Chas on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 

by Dick Ginkowski on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:20 am
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Greg Downing wrote:Dick, it's so easy! All you need is a flash with a distance scale.
Easier: Just stand next to Chas and look over his shoulder! :D
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by fredcor on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:20 am
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Thanks Greg & EJ, much appreciate your replies.

Dick, I can see that you appreciate my dilemma.
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by Dick Ginkowski on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:22 am
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As an aside, I recall in Homer that the birds were so close that a Beamer could have been overkill.
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by Greg Downing on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:32 am
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Yup, I recommend taking the beamer off when closer than 15 (or even 20) feet. In fact, when I do not need the extra range it provides I remove it.
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by Chas on Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:50 am
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Yet another crayon in your box :wink:

When not using a beamer you can alter the degree of the flash angle manually via the zoom control. This can prove very effective when using wide angle and mid-tele zooms, creating a spot-lit vignette effect on your subject(s), and or, as well as graduating the foreground. Using the beamer with a less than 300mm lens will provide nearly the same effect.

Try it during a blast off at Bosque this year, and see what you think :shock:


Best,

Chas
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by Anthony Medici on Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:19 am
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E.J. Peiker wrote:BTW, ETTL2 is not fooled like this because it uses the distance setting of the lens in the calculation and shuts down the metering segments around the edge of the frame for the purposes of flash output calculation. The consistency is significantly better due to this.
I'm not so sure about this. Nikon's been using distance information for a while and I've never heard anyone claim that it's infallible because it has distance information. (Also, doesn't the tone of the subject matter in this?)
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by E.J. Peiker on Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:22 am
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I didn't mean to imply that it's infallible but the consistency is much better with ETTL2. What the Nikon system does not do is reduce the matrix pattern for flash exposure calculation thereby reducing the background influence on the flash exposure. Of course if you put your subject at the frame edge, it will totally miss the exposure. My only point is that ETTL2 is a MAJOR improvement over ETTL in flash exposure consistency.
 

by AlexC on Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:11 pm
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Where it gets confusing is when you have to divide the photon by the square of the root canal, normally neutrinos should not dance at the edge of the frame , but in case they do I am sure it has to do with the effect of the quarks not quite following their elliptical orbits upon impact , needless to say it is still an open question what the effect will be on the bird's bone marrow, let alone if any feather discoloration after molting will result from this, Magnetic variations withing the accelerometer chamber normally do not follow linear plasma configuration, resulting in over exposure at times and non linear acceleration, But in no way this should be confused with magnetic pulse, which is totally dependant on yield divided by the distance from center of the critical event.
This could be totally avoided by the proper use of the SB800 and the D1X or D70 :wink: Keeping the event horizon within the proper sane distance of the viable targets!!
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by fredcor on Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:15 pm
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Well done Alex, you have expressed my point exactly. :twisted:
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by Greg Downing on Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:16 pm
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Alex, I totally understand the first few sentences. It's the last one that has me scratching my head. ;)
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by AlexC on Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:27 pm
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Greg wrote:
Alex, I totally understand the first few sentences. It's the last one that has me scratching my head.
Heck !!, That makes two of us !!! :wink:
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by Dick Ginkowski on Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:57 pm
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AlexC wrote:Where it gets confusing is when you have to divide the photon by the square of the root canal, normally neutrinos should not dance at the edge of the frame , but in case they do I am sure it has to do with the effect of the quarks not quite following their elliptical orbits upon impact , needless to say it is still an open question what the effect will be on the bird's bone marrow, let alone if any feather discoloration after molting will result from this, Magnetic variations withing the accelerometer chamber normally do not follow linear plasma configuration, resulting in over exposure at times and non linear acceleration, But in no way this should be confused with magnetic pulse, which is totally dependant on yield divided by the distance from center of the critical event.
This could be totally avoided by the proper use of the SB800 and the D1X or D70 :wink: Keeping the event horizon within the proper sane distance of the viable targets!!
Hmmm...too much time at Margaritaville. :roll: :P :twisted:
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by AlexC on Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:40 pm
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Dick wrote:
Hmmm...too much time at Margaritaville.

To be precise the place is called:
Cogñacville, Napoleon loved the place, and Margarita still lives there!! :wink:
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by Griffin on Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:55 pm
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Thanks Greg and Chas for the details explainations.


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by Parrothead Pete on Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:25 pm
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AlexC wrote:Dick wrote:
Hmmm...too much time at Margaritaville.

To be precise the place is called:
Cogñacville, Napoleon loved the place, and Margarita still lives there!! :wink:
Margaritaville is actually Southeast of Disorder. Once you reach that one particular harbour, you can shake the hand of the mango man as he greets you at the border.

And of course, it's always 5:00pm in Margaritaville :wink:

I'll take Margaritaville and tequilla over that french stuff anyday...of course, can't forget the mexican cuties :P
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