Thoughts on Canoes/Kayaks

Wasn't sure where to put this, but it looked like the general Photo Topics category was about the best fit.

I'm in the market for a canoe or kayak. I've posed this question a couple other places but there's a different group here so it's new information.

What I'm looking for is something that I can use to get on the water with my photo gear. Smaller is better since it'll be a one person operation but not so small that tracking is unduly affected. Lighter is preferred but I'm not sure I've got the budget for Kevlar. Probably a Royalex type of material is the route I'll be going. I have an absolutely terrible sense of balance. Good initial and final stability are therefore important. A traditional, round-bottomed kayak is not an option. Anytime I've been in one I've rolled it - not good with photo gear on board. I am; however, somewhat intrigued by the hybrid, flat-bottomed kayaks like these, http://www.madrivercanoe.com/product/in ... ynergy_14/ (not necessarily this one specifically but this style). Use will be almost exclusively flat water. Maybe some larger rivers but nothing rough. I'm not interested in doing whitewater with the camera gear.

Thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

If you "have an absolutely terrible sense of balance"...I don't think you should be in one. If you insist, always wear a life preserver and get hard sided waterproof cases for your equipment and a will. Good Luck

Thank you Steve, that's incredibly helpful (where's that rolling eyes graemlin when you need it).

The "absolutely terrible sense of balance" was a bit of an exaggeration with the hopes of avoiding getting suggestions for traditional kayaks. I have a good deal of paddling experience but haven't owned a canoe in over 20 years. Materials and designs have changed/improved quite a bit in that time so I'm simply looking for some ideas. Now, with that, if you have something useful to suggest I'm happy to hear it. If not, then I won't tell you what you can do with the sarcasm. I can get that on other large photo boards in abundance (along with the accompanying huge egos) so don't really need it here as well.

Bob - check out this website ( http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/hunt ... _k111.html ) for, IMHO, the world's best photography kayak made (even though it's designed for hunting and fishing). It is made extra wide, and you would have to work very hard to actually tip it over it is so stable. It comes in two sizes, the 11 footer and the 14 footer . Both are designed to carry extra cargo because of their extended cockpit length. The 11 ft. (38 lbs.) is smaller, more maneuverable and holds less gear, whereas the 14 ft. (65 lbs.) has tons of room, with enough cockpit space to easily hold your photo gear in front or behind of you, with easy access for shooting. I personally own the 14 ft. model. Hey, plus they're camo colored!

anyone use the hobie (drive system) kayaks?

many fisherman in my area are starting to convert over the pedal drive systems.

look great, but are quite pricey$$$ !

I do like that Predator K140. I may need to get that boat. Thnx Mark.

Bob,

It's been a while since I've done much paddleing and I think the Old Town suggestions above are very great.

Since you mentioned "tracking" as a consern, it may help to ask the sales reps of any canoe you are considering if they have any specs on tracking. Any data such as depth "into" the water would be a good key. Combining depth into water and width should give a realative idea of the "V" depth and tracking stability. Some canoes, like the old Coleman's wtih aluminum frame actually had a keel which helped tracking, but was so deep it created turning problems.

From what I recall, as I got out of the water and back into the canoe quite a few times is learning there is a fine line when stability as related to the flatness of the bottom (which is great on lakes) becomes a quick tipping point factor (passing the point of no return) in moving water.

I do photography from my Folbot Yukon folding kayak all the time and have never had an issue with stability or tracking. This boat is very portable too. Folds into two duffle bags. http://www.folbot.com/kayaks/yukon/
They also make a boat called the Edisto with a kit specifically for fishing or photography. http://www.folbot.com/kayaks/edisto/
The pontoons can also be used on the Yukon and they even have an upwind sail kit that fits many of the boats.
These boats are not toys. I have taken my Yukon in rough windy swells and it was very stable. Even paddled the lower Clearwater in Idaho with class 1 and 2 rapids and it did fine. It is great for extended trips because it has the load capacity and room for a lot of gear. You can talk to users of these boats at the Folbot Forum at http://www.folbotforum.com/index.php
You can even travel with these boats by checking them as baggage.

Thanks Mark. I'd been looking at a couple Old Town canoes but hadn't seen that Predator kayak. Similar to the Mad River. Seems like there are quite a few of those hybrid styles available.

I like the Old Town Pack Canoe. The best intial stability of any canoe out there and only weighs 33 lbs. I also like duck hunting boats for photography (great stability and can be made into a floating blind.

You might want to take a look at these:

http://nativewatercraft.com/

http://www.wildwindimages.com/wildlife_ ... Water.aspx

Go to Cabela's and do a search for "canoe stabilizers" - they look funny but they turn your canoe or kayak into more of an outrigger. I've been able to stand and take flight shots from my canoe with these... even a 150 pound excited Labrador couldn't flip the boat. You can set the height so that they don't interfere with the operation of the boat, they just catch you if you over extend. I have an Old Town canoe which is serving me very well.... light and durable.

Hope that helps.
-Rebecca



http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... ISO-8859-1

I wouldn't be concerned about tracking. Unless your making long trips in windy conditions or tidal waters, you'll be fine with a boat having little keel. That same "tracking" ability will also make it difficult to make small turns as your adjusting to take a shot. A 30" wide boat in the 12 to 14 ft range will be fine. Technically, you can shoot from any Kayak. I paddle an 18 ft 22" wide sea Kayak, I have shot from it but wouldn't recommend it. Boats in the 30" wide range will let you put your paddle down and afford a fair amount of movement in the cockpit before you upset the stability of the boat. You just can't do that in a 22" boat. Lack of tracking will only make paddling on a windy day require a little more effort to keep the boat online. And more importantly, it is difficult to shoot in the wind, and even worse from a kayak in the wind...you'll be bobbing around like a cork. Look for calmer days and quieter waters.

Fiberglass and kevlar are overkill for what you are doing. Get a polyethylene boat and you can beat the heck out of it. Even better yet, get a used poly boat..the price drop on used kayaks is tremendous.

This is great information. Thanks all. Designs have certainly changed a lot since I owned my last one.

There's a shop in Ottawa that carries the Native Watercraft models and I'm planning on being in Ottawa in a few weeks so can likely check them out at that time. Probably could put one in the water too.

Rebecca, I'm in Canada. No Cabela's here. Nice accessory though. Pretty slick.

We've a small flotilla of kayaks and canoes in NH, 5 kayaks and 2 canoes, so most of the family can be out in the water at one time. However, if anyone touches the Old Town Loon kayak ...

Seriously, even for the "balance-challenged," something like the Loon which puts you very low and has a wide beam should provide the stability you need. I regularly go out with my 500 and a 1D3 camera and don't worry about rolling. Now that is on a lake and I don't go out in windy conditions, but I'm generally going out to shoot loons and I want to be able to "park" and let them come to me, and that does mean sometimes getting in some awkward positions which compromises stability. I've never come close to rolling the Loon.

None of the other kayaks meet my requirement for stability. You're either riding higher or have a narrower beam. I've rolled them all, albeit deliberately, doing things I take for granted in the Loon.

We've also two Old Town canoes; I'm forgetting the models at the moment. For two people they're OK but for one I find them a bit trickier, again for photographing loons. Even a little breeze is more likely to move you off your desired angle and I don't find them quite as maneuverable.

Good luck however you go.

Rich

I just bought a pair of collapsible Pakboat Puffins on close out from REI. Haven't tried them out yet (fresh water's still all frozen up here) but I have put one together and I have to say, for the price, I'm impressed. They seem well built and designed and not too difficult to construct/deconstruct. Light too! I like the fact that, if you don't install the deck cover, you've basically got a canoe. I'll report back once we get to use them. I plan on using them on lakes and out in the salt water too when it's calm. I wanted something stable, easy to transport in my truck and on my boat and a good "bang for my buck". So far I'm pretty pleased.

Happy shopping!

The fishing kayaks in the 12 foot length with a wide beam and flat bottom like my wilderness systems pungo 12 are ideal for photography. They are very stable in calm small water.

Does anyone have experience with the use of an electric motor on your kayak to maneuver and approach without the use of a traditional kayak paddle which often results in the birds taking flight?
CJ
cjhockett.com

As Paul suggested check out the Native Watercraft. I think the Ultimate 14.5 would be my choice (high payload needed). They also offer an electric motor (heavy ?) and a peddle option. Both would probable be in your way if you plan using a tripod.

Kayaks are my specialty. I have been working as a kayak guide for nearly 10 years now, and photographing from these contraptions for just as long. Most of the recommendations that you are going to receive are bases upon the fact that someone else used that boat and it was OK for them. If you are going to invest money in a kayak for the sole purpose of photography, you need to define what type of photographer you are, what type of water you will be paddling, and what your expectations are.

There are two styles of kayaks that you want to look into: recreational boats and transitional touring. Sit on tops like the native watercraft are fun, but I never recommend one of these boats for people for photography as YOU WILL GET WET, both from paddle drip and also wind and waves over the bow.

Recreational style boats are extremely stable and have a very large cockpit. Only problem is that you become limited with the boat as to what type of conditions you can paddle in, and the distance that you can paddle. Sure you can do 10 miles in one of these things, but if your going to be regularly using the boat to cover water you don't want to waste your time.

A transitional touring boat is a cross between the recreational boat and the more traditional touring or expedition style kayak. This is what I use exclusively for photography. These boats have great initial stability as well as rock solid secondary stability. The smaller sized cockpit means that wind and waves are not going to soak you to the bone when paddling. These boats are often longer, but you dont have to buy one that is - 14ft is fine, though I personally use a 17ft. If you will be covering a lot of water this is the ticket as they are designed for speed.

The best part of a transitional touring boat for my style of photography is that I have all of my gear accessible but protected right in front of me on the deck of the boat. For wildlife, I simply slide my d300 and 200-400vr right down into a dry bag and stick the whole thing underneath the bungees or shock cords on the deck. As I begin to approach say, an oyster catcher on an oyster bed, I unroll the end of the dry bag and slide my lens and camera right out. This holds everything in place and makes it accessible. I am not fumbling with my camera equipment between my legs, precariously around me neck, or flopping around in the floor of my boat down near my feet.

Also, with a transitional touring style boat you can easily attach a tripod to the boat. Take your front leg and slide it under the shock cords on the deck and then spread the other two legs to come across the front of the cockpit. then simply wrap a bungee cord from one of the back legs, under the boat, and attach it to the other back leg. If you have padding on your tripod this will give you a rock solid platform to work from. When I am not going to be paddling but maybe a couple of miles, know I will be in calm water, and know that there will be considerable amount of wildlife all around - this is the technique I use. Camera is at eye level and when you see your subject you only have to set your paddle down and place your hands on the camera.

I personally would recommend anything in the Wilderness Systems' Tsunami line of boats for transitional touring or the Pamlico for recreational boats. Old Town, Loon, Native Watercraft are all good companies, its just that Wilderness Systems is the leading kayak company out there, and for good reason.

If you have other questions regarding boats or kayak photography techniques, just shoot me an email.
jl_photography@hotmail.com

Jared

http://www.JaredLloydphoto.com
http://www.JaredLloydphoto.wordpress.com

As an owner of both photography and true sea kayaks, I will agree with Jared.

While photographers always place their photography equipment over the kayaking aspect of kayaks, the widest and flatest of kayaks with huge open cockpits are . . . . well. . . . .no fun to kayak! if you are going to just go out on a marsh and float around and go less than a mile they are ok. But if you truly intend to actually paddle somewhere, then you will get frustrated. If you end up in any less than calm conditions of wind and chop, the wide flat bottom boats design is actually the most likely to get rolled over. I suggest a touring boat as well if you have any chance of being in winds and waves and traveling more than a mile.