1DX question on LCD display of RAW files

Hi,

I have a 1DX for testing this summer (!), and I started playing a bit with the menu tonight.

One thing that surprises me is this :

- if I shoot RAW only, the images as seen on the camera LCD contain color "banding" (horizontal patterns) as soon as iso 3200 (very visible at iso 12800).
When later imported in LR, the RAWs look ok, with random color noise, visible when sharpening and NR are deactivated.

- if I shoot the same picture in RAW + JPEG, the image looks ok already on the camera.

How is it ? Can 1DX users confirm this behaviour ? Maybe it's just me, but I have never noticed similarly degraded RAW previews on any camera I have had.

I may be mistaken with the 1dx display, but my Sony only displays jpeg on the back lcd.

I shoot at 3200 with RAW only and do not see any banding(or at any other ISO). You may have a camera with an issue....
Don

I'm the same as Don no issues at any ISO.

Vertigo wrote:Hi,

I have a 1DX for testing this summer (!), and I started playing a bit with the menu tonight.

One thing that surprises me is this :

- if I shoot RAW only, the images as seen on the camera LCD contain color "banding" (horizontal patterns) as soon as iso 3200 (very visible at iso 12800).
When later imported in LR, the RAWs look ok, with random color noise, visible when sharpening and NR are deactivated.

- if I shoot the same picture in RAW + JPEG, the image looks ok already on the camera.

How is it ? Can 1DX users confirm this behaviour ? Maybe it's just me, but I have never noticed similarly degraded RAW previews on any camera I have had.

That is not as it should be.

Now you're starting worrying me guys.

I checked again, it's not banding, it's patterned color noise, but it's definitely there (only on the rear LCD view of RAW-only files).

Not sure how I can show you. Is there a way to extract the preview from a RAW only file ?

BTW, what is it a camera is showing you on its LCD for a RAW-only file ?

- the real RAW file ? (no)
- a full rendering of the RAW file that is performed "on the fly" when you browse files on the card ?
- a full rendering of the RAW file that is embedded in the RAW file ? it would take the disk space of a RAW+JPEG file then.
- a degraded, compressed to small size rendering of the RAW file that is embedded in the RAW file ?
- something else ?

It shows you an embedded JPG created using the settings you chose, eg. "standard", "neutral", "landscape"...etc I suggest neutral, or create your own profile with only sharpening turned up a touch.

Sounds like you have a problem with the camera, my 1DX is fine at all ISOs that I use which for me is up to 6400.

Neilyb wrote:It shows you an embedded JPG created using the settings you chose, eg. "standard", "neutral", "landscape"...etc

That is what I thought also, Neil.

The question is : has this RAW-embedded jpg the same quality and memory size, as a full-size JPEG, like when shooting RAW+JPEG ?

Vertigo wrote:

Neilyb wrote:It shows you an embedded JPG created using the settings you chose, eg. "standard", "neutral", "landscape"...etc

That is what I thought also, Neil.

The question is : has this RAW-embedded jpg the same quality and memory size, as a full-size JPEG, like when shooting RAW+JPEG ?

No, it's a smaller JPEG used to render the info on the LCD but it has whatever picture style and any other settings applied to it that are JPEG only making it not a real representation of the RAW file.  That is why many turn the contrast way down in the picture style so that the LCD rendering and therefore the histogram is more indicative of the actual RAW file.  Newer Nikon and Sony cameras give you a Flat or LOG profile which is a much more accurate representation of what's actually in the RAW file but Canon does not give you that for still photos so you ahve to approximate it by turning the contrast way down and saturation down.

But none of that has anything to do with your issue.

For me it is relevant, EJ, because the only version of the file that I am not happy with is the embedded jpeg. The raw is excellent, but the preview on the LCD shows color noise that could make me think that I went to far with ISOs.

Thank you for explaining precisely what is this preview jpeg. If it is inherently lower quality, then it can explain what I am seeing.
I wish I could show this preview here, so that you see I am serious.

Vertigo wrote:For me it is relevant, EJ, because the only version of the file that I am not happy with is the embedded jpeg. The raw is excellent, but the preview on the LCD shows color noise that could make me think that I went to far with ISOs.

Thank you for explaining precisely what is this preview jpeg. If it is inherently lower quality, then it can explain what I am seeing.
I wish I could show this preview here, so that you see I am serious.

But I'm only seeing the small embedded jpeg (I shoot RAW only) on the back of the LCD of my 1DX and I don't see what you are seeing, everything looks fine up to ISO6400 (I don't usually go higher than this). So unless you have some strange jpeg settings set on your camera there would appear to be a problem with your camera.

Andy, thanks. Do you see exactly the same thing if you try RAW+JPEG ?

Vertigo wrote:Andy, thanks. Do you see exactly the same thing if you try RAW+JPEG ?

Yep the same, just checked now.

Vertigo wrote:For me it is relevant, EJ, because the only version of the file that I am not happy with is the embedded jpeg. The raw is excellent, but the preview on the LCD shows color noise that could make me think that I went to far with ISOs.

Thank you for explaining precisely what is this preview jpeg. If it is inherently lower quality, then it can explain what I am seeing.
I wish I could show this preview here, so that you see I am serious.

You may have Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer set to a very high level.  Turn them off if you are a RAW shooter, that may solve the problem as it is artificially causing the JPEG to be darkened in the highlights and boosted in the shadows which could show lots of noise in dark areas that are not actually present in the RAW.

I figured out that exiftool is able to extract the RAW-embedded preview jpeg (call it the "rawpeg"). So here is what I get:
Full size

From left to right these are 100% crops of:
- the "rawpeg"
- the in-camera jpeg (L, quality eight)
- the RAW as imported in LR4 with all detail enhancement disabled
- the RAW as imported in LR4 by default

Ok, it is not obvious, but I see more color noise in the rawpeg from the picture saved as RAW only (above), than in the rawpeg for RAW+JPEG (below). When scrolling in the preview image on the camera, it is perhaps more visible.
Not a big deal anyway as both RAW files imported in LR look equivalent.

Also, all the jpegs (rawpegs and in-camera jpeg) contain much less detail than the RAW file. I knew that, but I did not figure it was so obvious. I'm warned now.


FWIW, here is the same test at iso 20000:
Full size

I did the test also at iso2500, and 6400 with picture style neutral. Will put the results together if someone's interested.
Would be interesting to try the same with my 7D or 5D2, to know if this 1DX is faulty.

Did you read my message right above your last one? That would explain what you are seeing.

Yes, EJ, I read your suggestion. I indeed had Auto Lighting Opt. set to level 2 (thank you, I thought I had turned all those otpions off but forgot that one).
I turned it off, and performed the above tests. So it was not the cause it seems.

Personally, from what you posted I don't see anything that would indicate a malfunction. I think you may be pixel peeping an image that was never meant to be a high resolution, low-noise rendering.

In the end it looks like pixel peeping indeed, however the noisy, low detail preview stroke my eyes immediately, as I reviewed the very first image I took with the camera (inside my home, low light, ISO 3200). So maybe I am a natural-born pixel-peeper, I can live with that.

Happy to finally conclude there is probably no fault from my camera. A friend that has a 1DX for years has always pretended the jpegs were unusable. I can see why now. I do not care as I shoot RAW only, but the previews look so far from LR default import, that in some situations, one could not evaluate on the camera LCD the true level of detail captured in a picture. Surprising and good to know.

Thank you for your help.