Wing Shooting, with a DSLR: Anyone used these red-dot tools?

I was shooting some migrating crows at my Maine home last weekend. 

I got 2 acceptable images out of about 200 frames.  Just click on this link to immediately have a look at one of those 2 keepers:

http://robertkingimages.smugmug.com/


Several techniques were attempted, but none with a supplemental sight. 


So I was wondering......
Has anyone used one of these red-dot sights for BIF? 

And if so, what is your opinion of these red-dot sights ?

It seems to me that this first link demonstrates a very intelligent, but simple technique for mounting the sight.

http://petapixel.com/2012/03/20/use-a-red-dot-sight-for-locating-subjects-with-super-telephoto-lenses/

http://www.photosolve.com/main/product/xtendasight/


Robert

Good idea ! I think it will help for a project at my work, thanks.

For photography purposes, I once tried to mount small binoculars on the camera hotshoe, to help frame swallows in flight. The wider FOV and no blackout would help keep track of the bird, however this was not (intended to be) compatible with AF.

Maybe if you fine-tune the red dot to be aligned with your central AF point at the estimated distance, you might be able to lock AF, however you will have no visual feedback on what the AF is doing.

Another issue is that those "red dot sights" seem to have x1 magnification, this might be a bit short compared to a 500 or 600mm ?

You see a lot of Japanese photographers using a type of scope attached to their hotshoe for birds if flight

Dave

Dave Courtenay wrote:You see a lot of Japanese photographers using a type of scope attached to their hotshoe for birds if flight

Dave

Dave...

Can you direct me to a link or anything that shows that?

Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:I was shooting some migrating crows at my Maine home last weekend. 

I got 2 acceptable images out of about 200 frames.  Just click on this link to immediately have a look at one of those 2 keepers:

http://robertkingimages.smugmug.com/

Several techniques were attempted, but none with a supplemental sight. 

So I was wondering......
Has anyone used one of these red-dot sights for BIF? 

Disclaimer: Never used sights and sucked big time at capturing birds in flight (film era).

If you have 2 out of 200 frames only then I think you have to find out what errors you make.
I mean all those shots on your webpage are not hard shots. You're using 160mm-350mm focal length. With 300mm you can (most of the time) shoot Tree Swallows in flight with no problem even at close distances.
I think you need practice,practice and practice. I know that helped me big time.

Nowadays it's great that we have digital cameras because we can practice for free. Last year when I was photographing colony of Common Terns I'd make extra effort of staying longer (after good light was over) if I felt my flight shots were lacking.
Instead of leaving at 10am when light is becoming harsh I'd stay 1-2hr longer just for purpose of training.You can delete all those pictures later but it's great tool for practicing different techniques.

If you don't have any interesting birds nearby, try crows,pigeons,etc. Who cares.It's just for training.
If you want to play an instrument,you need to practice. If you want to do something well,you need to practice.
Mechanical aid might help you a little bit but I'm pretty sure good technique and a lot of practice will help you a lot.

Good luck

Andrew_5488 wrote:

With 300mm you can (most of the time) shoot Tree Swallows in flight with no problem even at close distances...

Have to disagree (although I shoot swallows in flight myself). I believe most people will find shooting swallows in flight very difficult, pretty much impossible at close distances.

Andrew, in your own words, you "never used sights and sucked big time at capturing birds in flight"…..then how is it that you feel qualified to advise me on how to do it?  

Please stay on the questions…..the theme of the post.   I am asking for those who have used the sights to comment.  

Thank you.

Robert
http://robertkingimages.smugmug.com

DChan wrote:

Andrew_5488 wrote:

With 300mm you can (most of the time) shoot Tree Swallows in flight with no problem even at close distances...

Have to disagree (although I shoot swallows in flight myself). I believe most people will find shooting swallows in flight very difficult, pretty much impossible at close distances.

Exactly.  Thank you DChan

DChan wrote:

Andrew_5488 wrote:

With 300mm you can (most of the time) shoot Tree Swallows in flight with no problem even at close distances...

Have to disagree (although I shoot swallows in flight myself). I believe most people will find shooting swallows in flight very difficult, pretty much impossible at close distances.

1. I said most of the time
2. I guess I must say that when I said at close distance I didn't mean 3m-5m but rather 5m-20m. Should be more clear.

I don't think it's impossible.

Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:Andrew, in your own words, you "never used sights and sucked big time at capturing birds in flight"…..then how is it that you feel qualified to advise me on how to do it?  

Please stay on the questions…..the theme of the post.   I am asking for those who have used the sights to comment.  

How ? Because I went through the same problem.
I don't know if I'm necessarily "qualified", I was just trying to offer different point of view.
You completely dismissed the rest of my reply.Fine.
I don't think sights are solution to your problem and I offered friendly advice.That's all.

Good luck.

Hey Robert 2 out of 200 seems about right to me.. Little birds in flight are the hardest to shoot,, Try shooting with both eyes open. Andrew is correct, it takes lots of practice. MY Opinion  sights of no use.

I apologize Andrew and would hope you accept it.  I sure do not want to insult anyone or hurt your feelings.  

Yes, I did read your entire post.  I have put in quite a bit of practice so far….and last weekend it was on crows.  So when you suggested practicing on crows….that made me wonder if you looked at the site because the opening image is of a crow.  I practiced on them all last weekend.

At one point last weekend I was shooting instinctively, along the top of the barrel.  It did not work .  I tried shooting with my right eye instead of my left eye and that was awkward.  

Yes, you are right about one thing for sure……it takes practice, practice and practice.  

But at this point, I want to know who has used sights and how they rate them.  That is all.

Thank you Andrew and have a good evening.  :)

Robert King

Craig Browne wrote:Hey Robert 2 out of 200 seems about right to me.. Little birds in flight are the hardest to shoot,, Try shooting with both eyes open. Andrew is correct, it takes lots of practice. MY Opinion laser sights of no use.

Yup….I tried shooting with both eyes open too Craig.  Well, actually, that was when I was shooting right-eyed, as mentioned above.  It's tough.  

Red-dots are not laser….at least I do not think that they are.  I would not use laser even if they were available.  

I think the biggest problem I am having is not being able to anticipate when that bird is about to enter the viewfinder.   It seems that with the red-dot, with a very generous eye relief, I would be looking through the red-dot and all around the outside of it…simultaneously.  At least that is what I am picturing in my mind.  

If I could do that, while sweeping with the bird, and then if I am able to put the red dot on the bird, releasing bursts at high speed..….I think the amount of keepers would go up dramatically. 

Wondering if anyone else on this NSN has done it before.  That first link I posted looked quite promising.  But how can the center focus square always be on the same line as the red dot is?  In my mind, it seems that the line of sight and the axis of the lens cross at one point only.  But I just do not know.

Help  

Robert

Craig Browne wrote:Hey Robert 2 out of 200 seems about right to me.. Little birds in flight are the hardest to shoot,, Try shooting with both eyes open. Andrew is correct, it takes lots of practice. MY Opinion laser sights of no use.

I'd slightly disagree with your first point.
Unless we're talking small fast birds like Tree Swallows or large acrobat fliers like Black Skimmers or tough background (AF hunting) i don't think 2 in 200 is a good ratio with today's modern AF equipment.

You may not get more than 2 good photographs but you should get much more technically sound pictures (sharp,full object in frame).

Last year I was practicing on Terns,this year I'll spend much more time on Black Skimmers since I find it challenging to follow them with 300mm-400mm during quick-fast bends. I'd love to have good picture in vertical bend of a Black Skimmer.
Still,even if not successful it's great fun to watch them doing their fast turns.

I know if it was back in the film days I would be very, very discouraged by now.  but as it is now….all I have to do is hit the delete button over and over.    I can practice for nothing, and that cannot be all that bad.

Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:
 That first link I posted looked quite promising.  But how can the center focus square always be on the same line as the red dot is?  In my mind, it seems that the line of sight and the axis of the lens cross at one point only.  But I just do not kn  

First link shows Minolta 500mm mirror f8 lens. I'm not surprised the owner had problems.
This is very light and short lens. I think he'd get much better results with full weight and size 500mm lens. Besides,did he use it on tripod or handheld ?
Knowing that lens I can tell you it would be easier to practice handheld than on tripod but in either case it would be miserable.
Not impossible but not fun (just as it's not much fun handholding heavy lens).

Also he never mentioned how he used it with the sight. I mean I guess he was looking through the sight which means it would be awkward handheld (using it like some people are using camcorders) and not really helpful when on tripod.

I mean this is like a bandaid to me. Addressing result and not the cause. Result is not many pictures. Cause is poor (or lack of) technique and lack of practice.


PS.In his case I'd actually argue that the cause is not exactly the right tool for photographing birds in flight.
Again,gulls in flight are not hard shots most of the time.

Red dot sights are quite accurate if aligned properly, the problem is how to align them and mount them in a place where you can use them. I assume you want to use them with one eye with the other eye on the viewfinder?

I use them to aim astronomical telescope an they are easily good enough to aim a scope at 50-100x magnification. But that is an entirely different scenario as to how much time you have.

Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:

Craig Browne wrote:Hey Robert 2 out of 200 seems about right to me.. Little birds in flight are the hardest to shoot,, Try shooting with both eyes open. Andrew is correct, it takes lots of practice. MY Opinion laser sights of no use.

Yup….I tried shooting with both eyes open too Craig.  Well, actually, that was when I was shooting right-eyed, as mentioned above.  It's tough.  

I think the biggest problem I am having is not being able to anticipate when that bird is about to enter the viewfinder.   It seems that with the red-dot, with a very generous eye relief, I would be looking through the red-dot and all around the outside of it…simultaneously.  At least that is what I am picturing in my mind.  

I never try to shoot with both eyes open.I don't find it useful at all but I do scan area around with second eye while I'm observing my object through viewfinder.
If you look at the nesting bird you have to have open second eye from time to time to see what's going on around. Maybe there's some bird landing with fish nearby.You would miss feeding if you're only looking through viewfinder. Of course the moment when you take off your eye of viewfinder to look around (if you don't use the other eye) something interesting happens at the nest you're just observing

Also when I follow a bird in flight and loose it I'll open second eye to try to locate it.It is hard but it works (if I'm fast enough).
What works for me is following your subject from distance and sticking to it until it is in shooting range and good position.

Acquire your object from long distance.If you anticipate that it'll fly nearby just follow it with your AF.Once in range and/or good position shoot burst and follow through. Just like playing tennis
Can be done handheld or on tripod.

Yes,birds will make quick flight corrections that will make you loose them but that's how it is. Also every bird has different flight pattern.
You have to recognize that.That will help you with anticipation later on. Terns will hover,flight straight,dive at you,dive at fish.
Black Skimmers will slowly flight out to ocean in straight line (mostly),once in speed they do quick sharp turns or long ones for that matter.You can recognize those patterns and that'll help you much more than any sight in my opinion. Observation is the key.

At the beginning you'll keep loosing them. Solution ? Simple,start shooting earlier. After awhile you'll know the distance you're good at.

Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:I apologize Andrew and would hope you accept it.  I sure do not want to insult anyone or hurt your feelings.  
 So when you suggested practicing on crows….that made me wonder if you looked at the site because the opening image is of a crow. 

No hurt feelings. I suggested crows because I did look at your pictures. Otherwise I'd not know that you used between 150mm and 350mm focus length.

Olympus has introduced a Red Dot sight attachment that mounts on the micro 4/3 camera hot shoe...due to ship in April/May. The concept is as discussed here to allow one to track fast moving subjects like birds in flight.

The issue is the black out of the EVF on the micro-thirds cameras. They are actually stealing the concept from users who use the red dot sights for riffle setups on the m 4/3 EVFs but added a few features as below
•Dustproof and splashproof dot sight
•Compatible with any camera with a hot/cold shoe mount
•Slide lever style opening mechanism
•Perfect for super telephoto shots of wildlife (for fast subject acquisition & tracking)
•Center aiming dot
•Adjustable brightness and position

http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/ee-1-dot-sight.html

I hope to get mine here in the next weeks and then can try it out on my OMD EM1. The recent firmware update to the OMD EM1 has made a significant upgrade to the CAF of this camera.

as it is independent to any power needs from the camera this may work on regular DSLR as well.

doug