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by OntPhoto on Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:26 am
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Blogger tries to present a balanced look at baiting owls.  Apparently the baiting of owls in the Sax-Zim Bog last winter (2014) had caused some tension.  The author joins in and finds out what it's like on the other side.  BTW, winter 2015 is a another decent one for great gray owl and northern hawk owl in the Sax-Zim Bog.

https://lodgetrailmedia.wordpress.com/2014/02/11/of-mice-and-owls/

by chuckkl on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:32 am
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One of the best ever analyses !

Chuck.

by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:07 am
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Very interesting post OntPhoto

I read the link article.  I agree:  good piece of writing; clear rationale.....but we all have our opinions.  I would like to give mine.

1.  Like the photographer in the rear, I too find it repulsive that photographers buy living mice at pet stores and drop them out in front of owls to get photographs.  

2.  As I wrote in another post, technically, you can say that feeding birds seed is baiting them.    

But no, feeding birds seed is not the same as sending a living mouse to its death so you can get a photograph.  It is not the feeding of the owls that bothers me.  It is the treatment of the mouse just so you can get a photograph.  Are these guys proud enough of their images to state in the caption that a living mouse was used as bait?  I doubt it.  It is my opinion that such photographers are desperate for recognition and selfish.  This practice shows disrespect for nature.  It is irresponsible.  Of course these photographers are already aware of the damage that they may be causing....but they simply do not care.  Again...my opinion; i.e. subjective.
______________________




The following is not subjective:
If you do not already know, this is why the practice is irresponsible:


EXOTIC SPECIES

3.  We all know that as a group, rodents have a super high reproductive potential.  Exotic rodents that have been introduced into systems, are notorious for causing potentially irreversible damage.  There are many examples of exotic rodents becoming established in natural systems and causing serious problems.

Here is one example...and the one that is going on right now.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/02/worlds-largest-rat-poisoning-project-rid-south-georgia-rodents
 



I do not now recall the State that was mentioned in the article.  It was Minnesota.  The State is obligated to step in and regulate this now.  

Don't expect any pet shop to self-regulate.  It is not going to happen. 

If I am in Minnesota, I am calling that State's wildlife agency and asking them to look into this practice now. 

Maybe they have already.  Maybe I missed that part.  If I did, I apologize. 

Is the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources aware of this practice of releasing exotic rodents into the Sax-Zim Bog system? 

Update: I e-mailed the agency.

I urge all nature photographers to make their State's wildlife agencies aware of any release of rodents (or any other non-native species) into the State's ecosystems.

Thank you
  




Robert King
http://itsaboutnature.net/

by jeff Parker on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:13 pm
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Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:Very interesting post OntPhoto

I read the link article.  I agree:  good piece of writing; clear rationale.....but we all have our opinions.  I would like to give mine.

1.  Like the photographer in the rear, I too find it repulsive that photographers buy living mice at pet stores and drop them out in front of owls to get photographs.  

2.  As I wrote in another post, technically, you can say that feeding birds seed is baiting them.    

But no, feeding birds seed is not the same as sending a living mouse to its death so you can get a photograph.  It is not the feeding of the owls that bothers me.  It is the treatment of the mouse just so you can get a photograph.  Are these guys proud enough of their images to state in the caption that a living mouse was used as bait?  I doubt it.  It is my opinion that such photographers are desperate for recognition and selfish.  This practice shows disrespect for nature.  It is irresponsible.  Of course these photographers are already aware of the damage that they may be causing....but they simply do not care.  Again...my opinion; i.e. subjective.
______________________




The following is not subjective:
If you do not already know, this is why the practice is irresponsible:


EXOTIC SPECIES

3.  We all know that as a group, rodents have a super high reproductive potential.  Exotic rodents that have been introduced into systems, are notorious for causing potentially irreversible damage.  There are many examples of exotic rodents becoming established in natural systems and causing serious problems.

Here is one example...and the one that is going on right now.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/02/worlds-largest-rat-poisoning-project-rid-south-georgia-rodents
 



I do not now recall the State that was mentioned in the article.  It was Minnesota.  The State is obligated to step in and regulate this now.  

Don't expect any pet shop to self-regulate.  It is not going to happen. 

If I am in Minnesota, I am calling that State's wildlife agency and asking them to look into this practice now. 

Maybe they have already.  Maybe I missed that part.  If I did, I apologize. 

Is the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources aware of this practice of releasing exotic rodents into the Sax-Zim Bog system? 

Update: I e-mailed the agency.

I urge all nature photographers to make their State's wildlife agencies aware of any release of rodents (or any other non-native species) into the State's ecosystems.

Thank you
  




Robert King
http://itsaboutnature.net/

Now this argument I understand and respect. 

by Mark Picard on Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:27 pm
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Blck-shouldered Kite wrote:Very interesting post OntPhoto

I read the link article.  I agree:  good piece of writing; clear rationale.....but we all have our opinions.  I would like to give mine.

1.  Like the photographer in the rear, I too find it repulsive that photographers buy living mice at pet stores and drop them out in front of owls to get photographs.  

2.  As I wrote in another post, technically, you can say that feeding birds seed is baiting them.    

But no, feeding birds seed is not the same as sending a living mouse to its death so you can get a photograph.  It is not the feeding of the owls that bothers me.  It is the treatment of the mouse just so you can get a photograph.  Are these guys proud enough of their images to state in the caption that a living mouse was used as bait?  I doubt it.  It is my opinion that such photographers are desperate for recognition and selfish.  This practice shows disrespect for nature.  It is irresponsible.  Of course these photographers are already aware of the damage that they may be causing....but they simply do not care.  Again...my opinion; i.e. subjective.
______________________




The following is not subjective:
If you do not already know, this is why the practice is irresponsible:


EXOTIC SPECIES

3.  We all know that as a group, rodents have a super high reproductive potential.  Exotic rodents that have been introduced into systems, are notorious for causing potentially irreversible damage.  There are many examples of exotic rodents becoming established in natural systems and causing serious problems.

Here is one example...and the one that is going on right now.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/02/worlds-largest-rat-poisoning-project-rid-south-georgia-rodents
 



I do not now recall the State that was mentioned in the article.  It was Minnesota.  The State is obligated to step in and regulate this now.  

Don't expect any pet shop to self-regulate.  It is not going to happen. 

If I am in Minnesota, I am calling that State's wildlife agency and asking them to look into this practice now. 

Maybe they have already.  Maybe I missed that part.  If I did, I apologize. 

Is the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources aware of this practice of releasing exotic rodents into the Sax-Zim Bog system? 

Update: I e-mailed the agency.

I urge all nature photographers to make their State's wildlife agencies aware of any release of rodents (or any other non-native species) into the State's ecosystems.

Thank you
  




Robert King
http://itsaboutnature.net/
+!   I especially agree with Robert on this: 


But no, feeding birds seed is not the same as sending a living mouse to its death so you can get a photograph.  It is not the feeding of the owls that bothers me.  It is the treatment of the mouse just so you can get a photograph.  Are these guys proud enough of their images to state in the caption that a living mouse was used as bait?  I doubt it.  It is my opinion that such photographers are desperate for recognition and selfish.  This practice shows disrespect for nature.  It is irresponsible.  Of course these photographers are already aware of the damage that they may be causing....but they simply do not care.  Again...my opinion; i.e. subjective. - See more at: http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... LK6lx.dpuf
Mark Picard
Website:  http://www.markpicard.com
Maine Photography Workshops

by SCmzd on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:03 am
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This was a well written blog on the subject, and I enjoyed the thought and effort put into it. My name is Shawn Zierman. I am a nature lover/photographer who lives in Minnesota and spends time in the Sax Zim Bog. I feed live mice to owls both to feed the owls and as part of photographing them. Robert King you stated this: "Are these guys proud enough of their images to state in the caption that a living mouse was used as bait? I doubt it. It is my opinion that such photographers are desperate for recognition and selfish. This practice shows disrespect for nature." I disagree, but only completely. You can see my body of work at Birdphotographers.net. Every owl image where the owl was fed live mice as part of the image making process is labeled as such. The supermoderator of that site, Daniel Cadieux feeds owls and photographs them. His fed owl images are labeled as such. Most of Arash Hazeghi's fed owl images are labeled as such. Several other photographers who post on that site label there fed owl images as such. The practice of feeding owls shows "disrespect for nature"? I'm curious how in this same forum you promoted an individual from your home state that could "possibly do clinics on how black bear hunters can hunt on foot" - See more at: http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... uowDL.dpuf, but if I feed a few owls some mice in the winter, I'm disrespecting nature. So, it's okay to kill a bear and eat it, but "disrespectful" to feed an owl a live mouse?? Interesting. If I killed the owl and ate it, that is, if the owl was a game bird like the grouse you've killed, and I shot them and took them home and cooked them and ate them, that would show more respect?.....The hawk owl that is featured in this blog post was fed by myself and others off and on in the Sax Zim Bog last year. It felt so "disrespected" that it stuck around in the spring, paired up with another hawk owl and raised a family of Northern Hawk Owls in that general area....more terrible results from feeding a bird! Right?.....Tell me Robert King, what is the range of the House Mouse in the lower 48? Do you even know? The range maps I've studied show that this species proliferates every state. There are farms, outbuildings, and other areas throughout the Sax Zim Bog that already have House mice living there....no one is going to "introduce" anything that has not already been there for some time. I realize that historically, they are not native, but that was long ago now. The legislation that was introduced into the Minnesota legislature last year attempting to place a ban on feeding owls was defeated. There is NOTHING illegal about feeding owls in Minnesota on public land.....Do you not trust the decision making capabilities of a wild owl?? Well, I do, and I have NOTHING to hide about it. Regards, Shawn Zierman. :)

by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:20 pm
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Hi Shawn

I should not have assumed owl baiters would choose not to divulge that they used a live mouse to lure in their owl subjects.  I should not have accused them of concealing the tactic.  That was my mistake.  I apologize for this.   Insults will get me nowhere.

I read your entire post. So, I ask that you please read this entirely:

I am a wildlife biologist.

1.  It is widely accepted that the loss of habitat is the primary cause of the depletion of species worldwide.  

As a species' habitat becomes compromised or removed entirely, it gradually moves toward being listed (Species of Special Concern, Threatened Species and Endangered Species...in order of increasing seriousness).  In effect, it is the habitat that becomes endangered...and then the species.

Some species are much more habitat-selective (specialists) than others (generalists) and so the specialists are much more susceptible to depletion.

2.  And probably the next most detrimental factor to the gradual demise of natural systems is the introduction of exotic species (not native to the system) that eventually become a problem...and so, are labelled "invasives".  I think it is safe to say that we did not anticipate how big a problem invasives would come in North America (and anywhere else).  Invasive species are rapidly becoming the next "nail in the coffin" (if you will) to our natural systems.

Our native systems (worldwide) took millennia to develop....but are being destroyed in well less than 2 centuries.  And there is no indication at all that this trend is going to change.

Of course, man is the principle vector in moving species around the world.  In the 40 years I have been involved with learning and trying to understand problems regarding man and nature....the problem of man moving species into systems they are not native to....has increased dramatically.  We have not educated the public to the scope of the problem (partly because we do not fully understand it ourselves) and it is now overcoming native systems and "simplifying" them (again, if you will); i.e.

The stability of a natural system is directly related to the diversity of its native species.

I am starting to see that the introduction of exotic species into systems that have already become fragmented by man....is a potential coup de grace.  

Let me give what I think is shaping up to be an apt example that directly and very negatively effects my "home":

1.  The non-park forests of Northern Maine are being ravaged by the wood-fiber industry like never before.  I use "wood-fiber" because I do not know all of the types of products being made/marketed from these trees.  

Ok, legally, the law supposedly assures that the days of large clear cuts are over (Maine Forest Practices Act).  But we all know that these things are very "flexible" depending on who has jurisdiction and who is doing the interpretation of the Act.  One only needs to look at most current satellite imagery of northern Maine and compare it to past imagery to see the increased ravaging of the northern forest (please Google Earth northern Maine and look at current images and also make the selection that shows several previous years).  I like to call the areas left behind these wood cutting operations....slash fields.  I remember that the slash fields were about 1 to 2 feet deep back in the 1970's when I first worked that area.  Now, the slash fields are as deep as mid-thigh.  With Google Earth, you can see the massive corduroy effect of the commercial cutting operations. 

2.  About 20 years ago, northern Maine forests were being harvested at a rate of about 25,000 acres a year (just as an example).  Today, that rate has increased to maybe 750,000 acres per year.  And there is nothing (at all!!!!) to indicate that this rate is not going to continue to increase.  It will.  It is my opinion that this cutting will continue until the wood industry has stripped every bit of profit that they can from that formerly old forest.  Hey, they can.  They own it.

3.  What is happening to Maine's boreal forest is a complex story and one that we will never fully understand.  But it is not good.  

4.  Asiatic Bittersweet (ABS) is an exotic that stands to destroy our native forest trees.  ABS is most prevalent along major arteries of human movement; i.e. Interstate 295 and the Maine Turnpike.  ABS is already well-established at far north as Newport Maine.  I predict that in well less than 10 years ABS will become well established in the northern forests that have been ravaged (and yes, that is a completely fair word to use here).  The conditions are perfect for the establishment of ABS in northern Maine because the forest is so open now and the system is very stressed from the super-intense cutting.  After ABS becomes very well established it is going to be a mess that will require millions of dollars to correct and in fact, will probably never be able to be corrected.
  

This is just one example of the problems caused by exotic species.   I use it here because it is going to greatly, negatively impact the quality of my outdoor experience in northern Maine for the rest of my life. 
  

Shawn, it is getting late for me this evening.  Because of my winter responsibilities,  I see that I do not have time now to continue on with this.  I think you can see where this is going.  I will leave you with just a few things and then continue with this later:  You mentioned the House Mouse.  I did not know that this is the species that is being sold at pet shops for baiting owls.   Is it?  It is my understanding that the House Mouse (Mus spp.) is not native to North America (although it is very well-established).  And this is my point.  I assure you that our native owls are not discriminating as to what species of rodent that is being offered to them by baiters.  Although I do not suggest that you are.  But it does not matter what rodent species you use to bait owls with.  You baiters could be feeding them rats from Africa (literally!) and they will kill and eat them.  Pet shops must not be trusted to self-regulate.   Of course that comment sets me up for pet shop owners to be offended.  But I am sorry; I know from personal experience that the comment is accurate.  I am sure most are very responsible.  But it is not their job to determine what would be detrimental to natural systems (if released) and what would not.   

It is the responsibility of the Fish and Wildlife Agency in each state to regulate these pet shops.  And I am sure many are not up to speed yet.


The spread of exotic species is an enormous problem.....and getting worse. 
   

I have found a few references and will continue on with this issue after I take care of my responsibilities here and then get fully rested again.  This all was quickly written and so I may have to correct a few things later.


For now.....thanks for tuning in.  :D

Robert King
http://itsaboutnature.net


Last edited by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

by OntPhoto on Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:44 pm
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A lighter look at feeding owls.


:)


Funny owl feeders cartoon

by SCmzd on Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:57 am
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Robert King, thanks for your thoughtful response.  I read everything several times.  Yes, House Mouse, Mus Musculus is the most frequently provided food to owls in the winter in Minnesota.  Please do speak as to why it is respectful to hunt and kill black bears and gun down ruffed grouse, but "disrespectful" as you say, for me to feed owls....
Please read this article if interested in the subject....http://moumn.org/loon/view_frame.php?bl ... &year=1997   a wonderful story imo, of how feeding an owl can have a very positive outcome...minus what happens to the house mouse of course.
Please also note that "Ramsey", one of the most regurlarly fed snowy owls in the state of Minnesota last year, was tagged with a radio transmitter by Project SNOWSTORM last year...http://www.projectsnowstorm.org/maps/ramsey/    here is a documented proof that owls do not forget how to hunt or migrate if they are fed regularly during the winter...they merely supplement their diet with the mice provided, just like the birds at all of our backyard feeders.
Please also be aware Robert King, that the agency you are telling people to contact by saying..."I urge all nature photographers to make their State's wildlife agencies aware of any release of rodents (or any other non-native species) into the State's ecosystems."....in this case, The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, is the same department that sells off large portions of spruce bog to be logged out, (home of the great gray owls that I feed during the winter), is the same department that brought us our state's wonderful wolf hunt, and made it legal to kill sandhill cranes and mourning doves....surely they know best right? ....lastly, please don't doubt for one second that if owls ate suet or peanut butter or seeds that I would not prefer to feed them that....I've tried, they just aren't the least bit interested.  :)


Last edited by SCmzd on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

by Blck-shouldered Kite on Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:27 am
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Shawn

I stand where you do regarding the various other decisions the MDNR have made.  Sounds like Maine Department of Inland Fish and Wildlife.

My point is that these state agencies are responsible for assuring that exotic species are not allowed into our native habitats/systems.  The USFWS has responsibility for managing the migratory wildlife/fish, but it defaults to the states wildlife agencies in most cases (regarding exotic management).

And from what I can ascertain the House Mouse originates from Asia.  We know it has become well-established globally….by man.).   The House Mouse is non-native (exotic) to North America.  Because of that one reason, it should not be allowed to be released into our native habitats/systems.   In that sense…MDNR is NOT doing their job.  


BTW, MDNR did not even give me the courtesy of a reply to my e-mail.


Releasing the House Mouse into our native habitats so that a photographer can get owl photographers is irresponsible.



Yes, the House Mouse is now well-established globally.  But it is an exotic and continues to be released into our native systems.  Biologists do not know all aspects of the damage caused by the proliferation of these exotic rodents.   Would you release any mouse species that the pet shop sold to you?

Sincerely, I would like to think that you would not.  Nature photographers are sometimes caught up in the excitement of the capture and make irresponsible decisions.  I have before. 


Excerpted from Wiki, documenting its exotic nature:
[font=sans-serif]House mice usually live in proximity to humans, in or around houses or fields. Originally native to Asia (probably northern India),[sup][46][/sup] they spread to the Mediterranean Basin about 8000 BC, only spreading into the rest of Europe around 1000 BC.[sup][47][/sup] This time lag is thought to be because the mice require agrarian human settlements above a certain size.[sup][47][/sup] They have since been spread to all parts of the globe by humans.[/font]
[font=sans-serif]Many studies have been done on mouse phylogenies to reconstruct early human movements. For example, one study suggests the possibility of a previously unsuspected early link between Northern Europe and Madeira on the basis of the origin of Madeiran mice.[sup][48][/sup] House mice were thought to be the primary reason for the taming of the domestic cat.[/font]
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muizenkooi_met_houten_muizen_(3).JPG
An individually ventilated and sealed cage for laboratory mice
[font=sans-serif]The first written reference to mice kept as pets occurs in the Erya, the oldest extant Chinese dictionary, from a mention in an 1100 BC version.[sup][49][/sup] Human domestication led to numerous strains of "fancy" or hobby mice with a variety of colours and a docile temperament.[sup][50][/sup] Domestic varieties of the house mouse are bred as a food source for some carnivorous pet reptiles,birdsarthropods, and fish.[sup][50][/sup][/font]



You say you read everything several times.  If you read where I stand on Maine's bear hunt, you will see that I emphatically disagree with MDIFW's condoning of baiting of the bear by Maine guides (with tons of processed foods). .....so that a hunter can get a bear rug! 

It is all about money and politics here.  And this is something that Maine Fish and Wildlife is not talking about to the public.  I will take the time to explain what I know of this later.  If the Maine public had known this, I believe they would have voted YES, and stopped the baiting/trapping/hounding of Maine bears.  But it ain't over till its over….and it ain't over.  I will get my editorial out and it will tell the truth!

I do not have the time to make thorough comments here...at this time.  I am very busy this winter season.  Later Shawn.

Robert King

by Little-Brown-Jobbies on Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:08 pm
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I once had an argument with someone about the difference between feeding mice to raptors, and feeding seeds to our songbirds....I asked the guy if he knows how many mice are killed during harvesting/plowing of sunflower plants? He danced around the question for a minute, I said probably a lot, we both laughed and that was that. Moral of the story is that the "baiting" controversy, in short, is a joke.
Tim King

by Mark Picard on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:45 pm
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Any person that purposely kills an animal for the purpose of obtaining a photograph is not a true nature photographer. This type of action shows a complete disrespect for wildlife and our natural world! Yes, all of us, including photographers,kill things pretty much on a daily basis (like killing insects by the hundreds, or mammals of all sizes) while we zoom along in our cars each day, for example), but this is not a premeditated act like live baiting is. 
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by Blck-shouldered Kite on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:57 pm
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Mark Picard wrote:Any person that purposely kills an animal for the purpose of obtaining a photograph is not a true nature photographer. This type of action shows a complete disrespect for wildlife and our natural world! Yes, all of us, including photographers,kill things pretty much on a daily basis (like killing insects by the hundreds, or mammals of all sizes) while we zoom along in our cars each day, for example), but this is not a premeditated act like live baiting is. 
I agree with you Mark.  And thanks for standing up for what you know is right in the case.

by Scott Fairbairn on Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:09 pm
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Same discussion as every other year. Those that do and those that don't.

by Mark Picard on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:40 am
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Scott Fairbairn wrote:Same discussion as every other year. Those that do and those that don't.


True Scott, but this is a forum and that's what forums are for. Should we not be able to voice our opinions?
Mark Picard
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by Scott Fairbairn on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:44 pm
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Mark Picard wrote:
Scott Fairbairn wrote:Same discussion as every other year. Those that do and those that don't.


True Scott, but this is a forum and that's what forums are for. Should we not be able to voice our opinions?

Not saying that at all. Just that this topic comes up every year and by the same poster I believe, and people get riled up but it's always the same result. Its a very polarizing subject. 
Btw, does the OP bait owls?

by OntPhoto on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:51 pm
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I bring this subject up because others keep bringing it up (not necessarily here but on other sites) and I want to have a place for a balanced discussion on the subject (forget about doing that on the other birding related sites where it is pretty much one-sided, emotionally driven and not always backed by any facts scientific or otherwise). I am not taking sides on this matter as I see the pros and cons for both. I strive to have a balanced view.

by Mark Picard on Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:10 am
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OntPhoto wrote:I bring this subject up because others keep bringing it up (not necessarily here but on other sites) and I want to have a place for a balanced discussion on the subject (forget about doing that on the other birding related sites where it is pretty much one-sided, emotionally driven and not always backed by any facts scientific or otherwise). I am not taking sides on this matter as I see the pros and cons for both. I strive to have a balanced view.
You haven't answered Scott's last post - do you personally bait Owls?
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by OntPhoto on Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:58 pm
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Mark Picard wrote:
OntPhoto wrote:I bring this subject up because others keep bringing it up (not necessarily here but on other sites) and I want to have a place for a balanced discussion on the subject (forget about doing that on the other birding related sites where it is pretty much one-sided, emotionally driven and not always backed by any facts scientific or otherwise). I am not taking sides on this matter as I see the pros and cons for both. I strive to have a balanced view.
You haven't answered Scott's last post - do you personally bait Owls?

I have already stated many times that I am neither for nor against.  If you join in to photograph an owl when it is baited it is the same thing to me.  I have already expressed what I do in such situations.  Go and re-read my posts on this matter. I have also stated that it is a personal decision each one must decide for themselves.  Having said that, I followed a family of barred owls at a nest over two seasons and never fed them.  I had a northern hawk owl all to myself for most of a winter and never fed it.  I have seen numbers of eastern screech owls and saw-whet owls over the years and never fed them.  I followed a long-eared owl family for a season and never fed them. I followed a great-horned owl family (no one else was ever around) last year and in years past and never fed them. I never fed any of the great gray owls when they irrupted here 2 winters ago. Many others were doing it and I along with many others benefitted as a result. It's pretty much the same thing. I haven't fed any snowy owls this winter. Is this something to brag about?  No.  To each their own.  There is also a time and place for everything.  There may be situations that come up when I will need to rethink.  Don't hold me to anything. There is a time and place for everything.  But I have participated in taking photos of owls when others are doing it. To me this is pretty much the same thing. This thread is not about whether you bait or not.  You can have an intelligent discussion about the subject regardless.  Some are pro and others are anti and others do not care either way.  I take no sides.  To each their own has always been my view on this.  It is not for me to dictate to someone else what they should do.  But maybe one day it becomes illegal to do so (highly unlikely up here but anything's possible).  I would not miss it for a second.  I do not have a personal stake in the matter.  I do not make any money on owls in flight.

We can get into all sorts of side discussions on feeding owls, killing mammals for food, for sport or for their fur.  Do you eat meat?  Isn't that a selfish activity to sacrifice an animal to satisfy your own cravings?  And does the fact that someone else does the killing for you so you do not have to see it and do it yourself make it any less objectionable?  Do you trap mice in your home and know they can die a long and horrible death?  Why is mice in your basement any less different than mice raised for feeding reptiles, raptors, owls and lab use?  Are mice and rats in your basement or even lab mice less deserving of humane treatment?  It is a slippery slope.  Are there any right or wrong answers?  To each their own I say.

by Scott Fairbairn on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:34 am
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Scott Fairbairn
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OntPhoto wrote:
Mark Picard wrote:
OntPhoto wrote:I bring this subject up because others keep bringing it up (not necessarily here but on other sites) and I want to have a place for a balanced discussion on the subject (forget about doing that on the other birding related sites where it is pretty much one-sided, emotionally driven and not always backed by any facts scientific or otherwise). I am not taking sides on this matter as I see the pros and cons for both. I strive to have a balanced view.
You haven't answered Scott's last post - do you personally bait Owls?

I have already stated many times that I am neither for nor against.  If you join in to photograph an owl when it is baited it is the same thing to me.  I have already expressed what I do in such situations.  Go and re-read my posts on this matter. I have also stated that it is a personal decision each one must decide for themselves.  Having said that, I followed a family of barred owls at a nest over two seasons and never fed them.  I had a northern hawk owl all to myself for most of a winter and never fed it.  I have seen numbers of eastern screech owls and saw-whet owls over the years and never fed them.  I followed a long-eared owl family for a season and never fed them. I followed a great-horned owl family (no one else was ever around) last year and in years past and never fed them. I never fed any of the great gray owls when they irrupted here 2 winters ago. Many others were doing it and I along with many others benefitted as a result. It's pretty much the same thing. I haven't fed any snowy owls this winter. Is this something to brag about?  No.  To each their own.  There is also a time and place for everything.  There may be situations that come up when I will need to rethink.  Don't hold me to anything. There is a time and place for everything.  But I have participated in taking photos of owls when others are doing it. To me this is pretty much the same thing. This thread is not about whether you bait or not.  You can have an intelligent discussion about the subject regardless.  Some are pro and others are anti and others do not care either way.  I take no sides.  To each their own has always been my view on this.  It is not for me to dictate to someone else what they should do.  But maybe one day it becomes illegal to do so (highly unlikely up here but anything's possible).  I would not miss it for a second.  I do not have a personal stake in the matter.  I do not make any money on owls in flight.

We can get into all sorts of side discussions on feeding owls, killing mammals for food, for sport or for their fur.  Do you eat meat?  Isn't that a selfish activity to sacrifice an animal to satisfy your own cravings?  And does the fact that someone else does the killing for you so you do not have to see it and do it yourself make it any less objectionable?  Do you trap mice in your home and know they can die a long and horrible death?  Why is mice in your basement any less different than mice raised for feeding reptiles, raptors, owls and lab use?  Are mice and rats in your basement or even lab mice less deserving of humane treatment?  It is a slippery slope.  Are there any right or wrong answers?  To each their own I say.
You initiated the post so I think it's fair to ask if you bait owls or not. Your answer is basically a dodge. It only requires a yes or no answer. It can be painful sitting on the fence after a while. lol 
So Yes, or No?

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