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by SantaFeJoe on Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:53 pm
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A ridiculous bill that I just learned about a few minutes ago. Are we going backwards or what?

Removal of protections for mountain lions

Joe
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by Mike in O on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:00 am
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I love these population estimates, always a wide spread...wildlife experts always exaggerate to sell more licences and justify killing the cats to satisfy the deer hunting public who see cougars as competition for the last ungulate. In Oregon, the cats are the only thing keeping in check the wild horse population which increases at 20% a year and is destroying the range.
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:45 am
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Mike in O wrote:I love these population estimates, always a wide spread...wildlife experts always exaggerate to sell more licences and justify killing the cats to satisfy the deer hunting public who see cougars as competition for the last ungulate.  In Oregon, the cats are the only thing keeping in check the wild horse population which increases at 20% a year and is destroying the range.
There's so much more to this story and so many contradictions!!! 
e.g., one so-called expert witness ( a former State Game and Fish Director) for Rep. Zak Cook testified that the cougars inhabit parts of the state hunters never reach.. ??? Sounds pretty stupid to me!
A former state senator then goes on to say that predators are a main reason for the decline of the sheep industry, without mentioning cougars specifically (accoring to the statement in the article, but I don't have a transcript of the testimony). An area that hunters never reach???
Rep. Andy Nunez testified he had seen an enormous cougar prowling a golf course in Las Cruces and that "mountain cats" are encroaching on the cities! An area out of the reach of hunters???
And could it have anything to do with the former chairman of the State Game Commission's illegal hunting of a Mtn. Lion recently?

Game Commision Chair Resigns


And now if this would be passed, there would be unlimited anytime hunting of cougars just like in Texas and NM long ago. I haven't checked to see the progress of the bill, but it goes to show how some things are pushed backwards just when you think progress is being made.

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:11 am
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The bill was killed:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... 7c6b7.html

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Mike in O on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:13 pm
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Population estimates (by so called experts) went from 500 before the citizens passed an initiative restricting dog hunting to 3500 a few years ago to 6000 now. Everyone in the State of Oregon has one in their backyard (LOL). Hart Mountain Antelope NWR has a good monitoring of their cougar population on the 250,000 acres Refuge. With a high ungulate population (horse, burro, elk, deer, antelope and bighorn sheep) and tightly regulated (ideal prey base) the Refuge supports 2 to 5 cats every year. These large carnivores are self regulating (by killing each other for breeding rights or hunting territory) and just don't increase willy nilly in each others territory.
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by SantaFeJoe on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:24 am
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A new approach to remove more lions and bears from NM:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... 95997.html

Part of this push is coming from hunters who should desire to protect the decreasing numbers indicated by a smaller harvest of bears and lions, rather than wanting to increase the deer population by reducing predators of deer.

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by Gary Briney on Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:05 pm
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SantaFeJoe wrote:A new approach to remove more lions and bears from NM:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... 95997.html

Part of this push is coming from hunters who should desire to protect the decreasing numbers indicated by a smaller harvest of bears and lions, rather than wanting to increase the deer population by reducing predators of deer.

Joe
The harvest goals for cougar seem inconsistent with the fact that it's a protected species. It's unfortunate that the underlying forces for setting harvest goals may be driven by a desire to maximize state revenues from deer license sales.
G. Briney
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by pleverington on Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:38 am
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It seems to me that as long as our philosophical bias leans to only our needs as the most important, the battle to live with any animal is in jeopardy. Every animal seems to evoke a perceived need by someone or someone's to be eliminated for some whatever reason.

This might be of interest to you guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... th_America

3 deaths so far this century attributed to cougar attacks. One life is too many for sure, but only 3 is not what anyone would call an atrocity that warrants annihilation. What is interesting that most all attacks are occurring to those who are traveling fast like on skis or a bike or running which kicks in that auto chase instinct of pursuit of running prey very similar to our domestic cats chasing a marble or ball. The other attacks are on children which is easy prey for any animal.


Read this:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.htm


It's in support I would say for the most part in limiting lions and presents some good cases, (although biased ones)...if your only looking at it as the authors do. But we do have to be real about predators. There can only be so many in today's world. Overpopulation will decimate prey species and then they encroach human areas for food. I know what I would do if I had a magic wand, but don't we have to keep their numbers way down in the reality of today's world?

Wildlife management is something we just can't get away from. We took that job away from nature when we stopped leaving it alone to do it's own work. So don't we need to keep cougar numbers down to a hundred or two per state?

Just saying...It's not at all how I want it, but say there gets to be too many cougars in an area and the attacks go way up.... then what? No matter what the laws are, people will be killing them on site probably till they are wiped out. This has happened many times in the past with every predatory animal.

This approach from the Animal Protection Agency of New Mexico seems to be taking a much more balanced, thought out scientific approach to the problem, but culling them is still the method:

http://www.apnm.org/campaigns/cougars/

As far as cougars attacking farm animals well that's what happens when you introduce food in a predators territory. But people believe its the other way around don't they? We were here first and then in comes the cougars invading our territory! Crazy....

Paul
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by jeff Parker on Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:52 pm
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It's not possible to have too many cougars in an area. Or wolves or other predators for that matter. Unlike humans, when deer get too difficult to find they cannot switch to potatoes. Then there is the territorial aspect. Cougars have a territory and will fight to keep it. They will not allow numbers of cats to rise in there territory. I shake my head at the "hunters" who claim that wolves, mountain lions, bears, coyotes, bobcats, etc. will eat all the game. How did they persist for thousands of years in great abundance before we came along to "manage" them?
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by pleverington on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:31 pm
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jeff Parker wrote:It's not possible to have too many cougars in an area. Or wolves or other predators for that matter.  Unlike humans, when deer get too difficult to find they cannot switch to potatoes.  Then there is the territorial aspect.  Cougars have a territory and will fight to keep it.  They will not allow numbers of cats to rise in there territory.  I shake my head at the "hunters" who claim that wolves, mountain lions, bears, coyotes, bobcats, etc. will eat all the game.  How did they persist for thousands of years in great abundance before we came along to "manage" them?
Jeff I think that the balance was never at one level for very long. Most probably prey animal numbers went up then so did predator numbers. Then as prey were eliminated predator numbers went down. Overall there is a balance, but short term I'm sure there were huge imbalances. Read that last link I posted and they make a point that cougars might be fine with natural forces balancing their numbers but other areas under pressure will not support balanced population for one reason or another. All in one state, in this case New Mexico. So they advocate thorough studies and region by region management instead of the blanket state wide bounty hunt or whatever they call it. The whole trouble is no longer is the world like it used to be. We are being forced to deal with all these things now..

Paul
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by SantaFeJoe on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:57 am
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More problems:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... 27060.html

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by WDCarrier on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:51 am
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We're polishing the brass on the Titanic, folks...just polishing the brass.
[font=Helvetica, sans-serif]“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” MLK[/font]
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by SantaFeJoe on Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:23 pm
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WDCarrier wrote:We're polishing the brass on the Titanic, folks...just polishing the brass.
And as it's quickly sinking!

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by SantaFeJoe on Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:53 am
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For anybody who thinks the game commission in NM really cares about wildlife and the supporters of wild things:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... 2371d.html

They're just puppets!

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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by jimbo on Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:54 pm
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On the other hand there are groups, that like to protest about  everything, they can not be pleased. It is their way or the highway.  They will not
And do not want to listen to the other side of the issue.  The commision can not make a decision that will please everyone.
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by SantaFeJoe on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:55 pm
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jimbo wrote:On the other hand there are groups, that like to protest about  everything, they can not be pleased. It is their way or the highway.  They will not
And do not want to listen to the other side of the issue.  The commision can not make a decision that will please everyone.
When they are political puppets that only serve certain interests, they are not doing their job!!! They are the ones that will not listen to sound reasoning! The federal government is now fighting them about the release of the Mexican Gray wolf in the southwest part of the state. They (NM) have, basically, caused a standstill in the state program. They refused to renew the permit that Ted Turner had that allowed him to help in the reintroduction of the species:

http://www.koat.com/news/ted-turners-ra ... e/33112994

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news ... -2015.html

http://www.nmwildlife.org/news/commission

Now they are going to allow snares for cougars on state and private land and, also, allow hunters to kill more per capita. Snares are indiscriminate and will kill lots of other animals, including deer and wolves.I have spent most of my life in the wilds and have only seen one mountain lion and few tracks. They are secretive, but can't hide their tracks in the snow and sand/dust. This is not just a bunch of animal protectionists that are trying to stop all killing of every animal!!! It is special interests that won't listen to sound science, but put money at the bottom line. There is no consideration for the effect on the ecosystem. I'm glad a few ranchers acknowledge that the animals belong and we are the trespassers and should expect a few losses from predation. The ranchers already get a welfare price for grazing around here. 

Joe
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by Blck-shouldered Kite on Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:05 am
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Your points are all accurate Joe.  I have just a few to add.

It is very encouraging to see that there are several ranchers who are declaring that the big cats belong there: "…...a few ranchers acknowledge that the animals belong and we are the trespassers and should expect a few losses from predation."  Hurray for them!  Sometimes just one dissenter from his own group will sway decisions.

So, Maine's Fish and Wildlife is similar to New Mexico's wildlife agency:  They are largely blood and guts, controlled by a hunting lobby….Sportsman Alliance of Maine (SAM) and Maine Trappers Association.  As of yet, there is no large, organized lobby, such as CAM, for Conservationists of Maine.  I am fed up with SAMS power over Maine fish and game.  They are controlled by the moose lottery and the bear baiters; i.e. money and lots of it!!  

Literally, the bear baiting business brings in over $40,000,000 each year ….just so the little, ego-feeding boys can come up from southern New England and bring back a bear rug….and more often than not…..a LITTLE bear rug.  They suck!  

To all New Mexicans:  Fight the squatting ranchers' decision to not accept co-existence with the big cats!!  

These are moral wrongs that must (and eventually will) be corrected.  It ain't over till its over…and it ain't over :)

Robert
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by Blck-shouldered Kite on Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:12 am
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The cougar and wolf are wildlife icons.

My hat is off to those conservationists who fought and won the battle to re-establish the gray wolf and mountain lion in parts of America it was formally extirpated from.

These two species represent an upper "layer" (if you will) in the old ecosystem, before men began destroying it for their own, selfish gains. These two represent THE last line in the sand for wilderness.

We have to work at zero population growth in humans. It is only in that way that we can hope to see these apex predators survive. Really, it is the only way we can save ourselves. We just do not see that yet. We do not see ourselves as part of ecosystems. And really, what do we contribute to them. All living things must take from natural systems to survive.

We are the only species on the biosphere that have demonstrated the ability to take from ecosystems and give nothing in return. And that is what cities do.

Robert
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by jimbo on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:06 am
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To affect the change, you all would like, get a seat on the commisions.Then you can apply your vast experience and knowledge and perhaps better decisions
Would be rendered.
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by SantaFeJoe on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:39 am
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As I said above, the commissioners are puppets for the governor and the special interests. You don't get in if you're not a player for whomever happens to be in charge and in power. If you won't promote the viewpoint desired by them, you will never be appointed. I don't play that game! Here's what the feds have to fight:

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/l ... a832a.html

Joe
Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.  -Pablo Picasso
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