people behavior around iconic sites

I have enjoyed sunset at Bass Harbor Light probably six or seven times.  I went last night with my wife and a friend and his wife and was appalled at the behavior I saw.  I have been there before with quite a few photographers and others and there has been a respectful atmosphere.  Last evening was anything but respectful. Two ladies with iPads plopped themselves on a rock almost directly in front of the light house and as the sunset time approached the crowd got larger and most seemed to have phones or iPads.  They were walking the rocks in front of photos that had tripods setup and some were even coming close enough to bump tripods and cameras.  The real clincher was when a gentleman arrived with video camera and he walked all over the place and then took a spot next to the two ladies on the rock.  The ladies kept turning around and looking at all with tripods setup and gave a smile-they knew what they were doing.  Just as sunset occurred a gentleman with his small camera ran across the rocks and up to the fence in front of the light house and stayed there taking apparently shots of the fresnel light.  Somehow these folks could not see the beauty of the pink tint spreading across the rocks.  

The last treat was when a selfie stick father with a group of children in tow decided to march across the rocks taking a selfie video in front of all those set up to take pictures.  I have felt for quite a while that we are quickly becoming a "me" culture-but the behavior last night went beyond anything that this old country boy ever dreamed of seeing.

I guess it depends on your point of view! I agree that it is now a totally "me" world and nobody seems to care about anyone else's interests. I've seen this for years at Bosque, but many times it has been the photographers that thought they were so important that they could block birdwatchers and other observers views. They would try to hog the boardwalk at the Flight Deck and move others out of the way. They would hog all the best spots with their tripods and huge camera set-ups! This started to cause a problem with the management of the refuge, and I was even asked once if I was one of those photographers by refuge personnel!!! I shun the crowds as much as possible, but now that everybody knows about Bosque, it is almost impossible. Times change and the quality of locations does too. One of my favorite locations for tent rocks has only been shown by me to one other person who will never go there for lack of knowledge of it's location and living out of state. If I told others, it would get trampled and the virgin soil would become covered with trails of footprints. It's too bad we have to be selfish that way, but people are always going to look at things differently than us and, I guess we have to accept this.

Joe

When you have been a photographer for almost 40 years you have always witnessed some stupid behavior but it was always the minority. Most photographers are respectful and look to be sure they are not in your view-finder. But now we have so many photographers out there that any iconic location will draw numerous photographers especially for any special nature even such as a full moon over a iconic site. In the early 90's I photographed the full moon over Splitrock lighthouse. It was a very cold January but a beautiful night, I was the "only' person there. Now under the same situations there will probably 200+ photographers at the same location with probably 3-4 workshops going on. But now the minority will be numerous people thinking only of "their" image! It is a public location and nothing you can do, maybe be respectful and mention that they are in your view-finder but if they don't move just try to move yourself to a different spot! I am glad to see so many people enjoying the outdoors/nature that I have been enjoying for many many years, some just need to develop a little photographer courtesy!

I guess from my POV if some location has that many people going there to take photos, I'm not interested. Maybe this is a west-coast thing? I just don't tend to see crowds like that around here.

sdaconsulting wrote:I guess from my POV if some location has that many people going there to take photos, I'm not interested. Maybe this is a west-coast thing? I just don't tend to see crowds like that around here.

West coast? Last time I checked, Bass Harbor Light was much, much closer to the east coast!!!

Joe

I guess I am lucky living in the underpopulated Northwest...the only problem area in my neck of the woods is Cabin Lake drawing Californians and their big guns.

SantaFeJoe wrote:

sdaconsulting wrote:I guess from my POV if some location has that many people going there to take photos, I'm not interested. Maybe this is a west-coast thing? I just don't tend to see crowds like that around here.

West coast? Last time I checked, Bass Harbor Light was much, much closer to the east coast!!!

Joe

You're right.

I was confusing this with a California lighthouse. My fault!

You haven't been to Peggy's Cove then.   A famous lighthouse on Canada's east coast. Heavily photographed and visited. Joe has a good point about "I guess it depends on your point of view". People are there for different things and most tourists are not going to be paying me any attention if I or a few others have a tripod up.  Nor do I expect them to. They'll walk all over the place and stand wherever they want and I don't expect anything different.  I just work around them or wait until it quiets down. Photographers seem to have the same entitlement mindset when shooting at local parks and expect everyone to stop or get out of the way because "they" are doing something important. Important only in our own minds. The park belongs to everyone.

It is impossible to claim exclusivity in a popular location. I was in Iceland last month and the place was full of tourists, as expected. They would descend in their bus loads, jump in the air in front of my tripod for selfies (what is with this new trend among young women?), or do the usual posturing and then disappear. At another location in the interior where it was a 3 mile hike to a volcanic area, I had no tripod but was simply trying to take a handheld shot of the fumarole, when individuals from this particular group kept running in front of me, to stand even closer to the hot vent. It was frustrating.

Then at the glacier lagoon for a sunset, this guy came in front of me with his tripod when I had already set up mine, so I moved further down, closer to the water, the only way he could get in front of me would be if he could fly! I still made sure I was well below him so as not to obstruct him. Then this woman somehow climbs up the rocks to stand in front of me. I had to tell her she was in my way and she did apologize and move off.

But it is true, as photographers we do not have the right to hog prime locations or viewing spots simply because we sport 'expensive' cameras. The proliferation of iPads and phones has meant that almost everyone at any location has a camera. On the trip last month, two in our group had iPads only and were very happy with the results.

Pradeep

I don't expect others to cede a location to me because I'm a photographer and I got there first. But I do expect--or at least hope for--a little common courtesy.

I was photographing at Tangle Falls, in the southern reaches of Jasper National Park along the Icefields Parkway in Alberta about 10 days ago. There was no one on the scene when I arrived, so I set up my tripod and had just begun making images when a group of four young women showed up and after chattering for a moment and snapping a couple of shots with their cellphones while standing a few feet to my left, without a word they walked right in front of me and started climbing (and then sitting) all over the rocks on the waterfall, which effectively brought my session to a close, as it was clear that they wouldn't be leaving any time soon.

These folks had every bit as much right to be there as I did, but given that I was there first and it was obvious what I was doing, it would have been nice if someone had said "we want to climb on the rocks." I would have said "thanks for letting me know, can you give me a minute--maybe two--to wrap up here before you head up there? I'd really appreciate it."

At least you are still allowed to use a tripod. In many crowded public places, including iconic sites and local parks, tripod use is prohibited because the tripods get in the way of the crowds of people, and make it tougher for folks to walk around.

Kerry wrote:I don't expect others to cede a location to me because I'm a photographer and I got there first.  But I do expect--or at least hope for--a little common courtesy.

That's especially true when there are posted rules. I was once down at Carlsbad Caverns wanting to get a shot of the Mexican Free-tailed Bats leaving at dusk. There are concrete or rock bleachers where you are to sit. There was a sign that clearly stated to not stand at the wall in front of the bleachers. I was all set up and ready when a group of about 4 teenagers stood up directly in front of me at the wall, knowing I was trying to photograph the bats!!! The rangers stayed silent and I did too. Now I wouldn't be so timid. Needless to say, I didn't get my shots. I've seen this behavior many times at parades, as well, where people come up late and stand in front of the people who already staked out prime locations.

Joe

SantaFeJoe wrote: I was all set up and ready when a group of about 4 teenagers stood up directly in front of me at the wall, knowing I was trying to photograph the bats!!! The rangers stayed silent and I did too. Now I wouldn't be so timid. Needless to say, I didn't get my shots. I've seen this behavior many times at parades, as well, where people come up late and stand in front of the people who already staked out prime locations.

Joe

Joe, sometimes people do this really deliberately, trying to get a reaction out of you. In such a situation it is best to stay silent. You do not want a confrontation in a lonely, remote place with a group of teenagers. People are much more aware of the expensive equipment we carry and it may just be a ploy to snatch your stuff. I am being paranoid I guess, but anything is possible these days.

Pradeep

OntPhoto wrote: most tourists are not going to be paying me any attention if I or a few others have a tripod up.  Nor do I expect them to. 

I have to support this.  It is a public place, what gives us the right to clutter a beautiful scene with tripods? I drove by Oxbow Bend last week just before sunrise.  It is a lot different now than it was in the 60's.  Hundreds of creative photographers trying to get a unique image as they stood shoulder to shoulder just making the place look trashy.  I will tell you what gives us the right to do that, it is public land.  I prefer less crowded places but I am glad we have public land and those photographers were there.  What we don't have the right to do is to try to exclude others that have differing interests.  What makes us think because we were there first we have some special privilege?  How do you define being there first, I was born in Jackson Wyoming and have always been amazed at the people that had lived there a matter of months and felt they needed to protect it from the new people. If you happened to get there a little earlier in the morning who cares. I agree it is sad when your perfect image opportunity get's destroyed by a later arrival but unless that latter arrival is a photographer that was lazy and thought they could barge in last minute   I have a hard time faulting someone that is looking for a different experience than I am looking for.

Scott Baxter wrote:
.................... What makes us think because we were there first we have some special privilege?  How do you define being there first, I was born in Jackson Wyoming and have always been amazed at the people that had lived there a matter of months and felt they needed to protect it from the new people. ..................

Scott, that is a very bold and honest statement. Takes courage to truly believe that and I hope you do.

I have always been an advocate of a world without borders, let people go where they will and if capable, get what jobs they can. I feel it would be a much better place. Sadly,  existing (or made up in some cases) divisions among humanity are becoming entrenched and much harder to cross these days.

Just my own 3 bits.

Pradeep

Scott Baxter wrote: I drove by Oxbow Bend last week just before sunrise.  It is a lot different now than it was in the 60's.  Hundreds of creative photographers trying to get a unique image as they stood shoulder to shoulder just making the place look trashy. 

Wow.  The last time I was at oxbow bend (probably in the 1990s), I was there by myself at sunrise, early summer, with my 4x5 view camera set up waiting for peak light.  Two women pulled up and got out and proceeded to move right in front of me and one started taking pictures of the other with the Tetons in the background, and just at peak light.  I protested and the woman with the camera said she was a professional so had the right.  I asked for her permit and told her client she was no professional.  Somewhere I have slides of this encounter.

Things like this are so common these days I've pretty much given up and changed to night photography.  Unfortunately, night photography is getting too popular.  So now I typically have to wait until after midnight for all the night photographers with their gazillion watt lights to be done so I can do my work with no lights.  The night is lit up so much now in places like Arches National Park that I have filed complaints with the park service.  It has to have an effect on the wildlife.  Gee, if you need to light up the landscape like daytime, maybe you should just work during the day!

I now try and work in remote areas not in parks, or if in parks between midnight and dawn.

Roger

Primus wrote:

Scott Baxter wrote:
.................... What makes us think because we were there first we have some special privilege?  How do you define being there first, I was born in Jackson Wyoming and have always been amazed at the people that had lived there a matter of months and felt they needed to protect it from the new people. ..................

Scott, that is a very bold and honest statement. Takes courage to truly believe that and I hope you do.


Pradeep

Pradeep,
I do believe it.  The bottom line is life is not an entitlement it is a blessing. I have gratitude when I turn on a faucet and get water or flip a switch and get light.  I understand well many on this earth do not share that luxury and I know it could end for me tomorrow. I have done a lot of soul searching on this topic.  Many years ago I was struggling in my job which facilitated jobs being moved to low cost countries knowing that this impacted my friends, and possibly my own job as well as future jobs for our children.  I had also worked in many of these countries and had good friends that were great individuals in all of them.  I am no defender of corporate greed and it was hard to see good hard working people experience reduced job opportunities even if I liked the people in the countries that benefited.   I was on the verge of resigning from my job one night when I listened to a sermon.  The preacher talked about the great blessing it was for people in these countries to be able to have one good meal a day, access to some education, and the ability to keep their family intact.  This changed my outlook. The only person more arrogant than the person that does not recognize that they are nothing without the people around them and the people that came before them is the person that really thinks they deserve what they have.  I think we take 3 things into the next life, our experiences, our knowledge, and our relationship with others and the environment around us, nothing else really matters.  Cameras and framed prints don't go with us. The story of Pegasus and Bellerophon is one of my favorite stories, most of us could easily lose everything because of a gad fly because we do not recognize the source of our strength or have gratitude for our blessings.

rnclark wrote:

Scott Baxter wrote: I drove by Oxbow Bend last week just before sunrise.  It is a lot different now than it was in the 60's.  Hundreds of creative photographers trying to get a unique image as they stood shoulder to shoulder just making the place look trashy. 

I now try and work in remote areas not in parks, or if in parks between midnight and dawn.

Roger

I am with you on this one.  I still work in parks I just avoid the parts people flock to and like you often take advantage of the quiet hours in the middle of the night.  I was raised in a Forest Service family so I have always had a bias against National Parks and prefer the areas that are not promoted by the tourist bureaus.  I guess I am much more driven by the experience than the image I get but getting the image is a fun challenge. I am fortunate to live in an area with a lot of less used public land.  Thanks for all of your night photography writings by the way I have learned much. 

There was a time when only 'professionals' had the big cameras, everyone else had basic units with little functionality. Photography was very much a niche profession or a hobby for the rich.

Since the digital revolution, everyone has a camera, including little smart phones. The poorest of the poor in the world now have the ability to take photos whenever they like, this has changed everything.

Combine this with the ability of the now upwardly mobile millions in the developing world to travel to locations that were the 'reserve' of well to do folks from the Western world. This leads to a huge population of snap-happy people who are traveling to places that up until a few years ago were unknown in the usual tourist circles.

For example, last month while in Iceland, we heard that a famous Bollywood actor was in Reykjavik shooting a movie. I guarantee that within  a couple of years, you will have a horde of movie producers from India crawling all over Iceland, followed soon after by millions of Indian tourists. All these people will get in the way of anybody serious about photographing an iconic location.

Whether that is a good thing or not is entirely dependent upon your perspective. What is obvious is that the glory days of having a great location to yourself because your have expensive gear or a tripod or get there early are long over.

Pradeep

Scott Baxter wrote:

I guess I am much more driven by the experience than the image I get but getting the image is a fun challenge.

That's how I feel too.