Tour Leader Responsibilities

I offer this as a discussion item for this forum: Should a tour leader be involved in taking photographs while guiding paid tour participants?Having been on a number of tours I have observed both sides of the issue from the leader not carrying a camera to those aggressively being involved in photography.

Recently, on a paid-for tour with an exceptional and well-published photographer we were seeking subjects that required shooting from the vehicle.  In this case I was put in the passenger seat with another participant in the back seat.  Upon locating a subject, the tour leader, and driver, continually placed himself in the optimum shooting position on his side, only moving the vehicle for my advantage after he had taken many images or the subject had moved.  Fortunately, the person in the rear seat had the advantage of both sides. From my point of view I expect the tour leader to have their cameras on hand but to ensure their focus is on ensuring their clients have the prime opportunity for seeing and photographing wildlife.  What do you think?

I fixed the funky formatting in your post

It's pretty plain and simple. If it is a photo tour or workshop where you are paying money to somebody to guide you then he should put you in the best shooting position possible even if that means he is in a sub optimal or even a non-shooting position.

There was a recent thread posted on NSN about this subject. I will post a link when I find it.

Here it is:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... &p=2307316&

Joe

E.J. Peiker wrote:It's pretty plain and simple.  If it is a photo tour or workshop where you are paying money to somebody to guide you then he should put you in the best shooting position possible even if that means he is in a sub optimal or even a non-shooting position.

I wholeheartedly agree. A tour leaders mantra should be "It's about the participants". I have been on tours led both ways and have nothing but respect for those who lead their tours with the participants best interests as their own guide.

If I am paying money I think the leader should not be photographing, he/she should be observing and teaching in the field. Paying for someone else to shoot on my time is not acceptable.

SantaFeJoe wrote:There was a recent thread posted on NSN about this subject. I will post a link when I find it.

Here it is:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/view ... &p=2307316&

Joe

Thanks, Joe.  I seem to have missed this.  My concern was not regarding the tour leader taking photographs, my concern was if it's their primary objective and it interferes with paid clients getting good opportunities.  In the instance I referred to I ended up with a good amount of my images partially blocked by the side view mirror.

WDCarrier wrote:My concern was not regarding the tour leader taking photographs, my concern was if it's their primary objective and it interferes with paid clients getting good opportunities.  In the instance I referred to I ended up with a good amount of my images partially blocked by the side view mirror.

It should never be their primary objective, as long as they are being paid to take out clients. If the tour guide has a place online to give a review, he should be honestly reviewed for others to be able to know what they may be dealing with on a tour with him. If a client has paid for a tour with someone like this, it would not surprise me if his clients later return to the same places alone to get their own photos. That probably wouldn't happen with a good tour leader. Repeat customers and referrals are important to a guides reputation and livelihood. 

Joe

And I would add to my earlier post that I have been on a tour where the leaders shot with the participants but did so with helping everyone to have the best positions and knowledge about the subject and any technical help needed as well. This was disclosed with the tour information. I thought it was helpful in that case to shoot side by side with pros who had a lot more experience than me, as well as I appreciated their attention to all participants having a good experience. I think in that way it can work IMO for tour leaders to shoot images on their tour as well. It just depends on the leaders making the participants experience primary and not their own.

WDCarrier wrote:In the instance I referred to I ended up with a good amount of my images partially blocked by the side view mirror.

I have never taken a tour or workshop, but if I had and this happened to me, I would be DEMANDING a refund! I guess this a lesson learned for anyone signing up for a workshop or tour; i.e. to ask what the shooting parameters are before paying the fee. I definitely respect those leaders that do not shoot at all and make it paramount that their clients are getting 100% of their attention and service. After all, these are businesses and the clients should always receive first priority. Happy clients are going to spread the word and generate more future business.

Help your "fellow" photographers... name names of guides who have shown to be dorks. What's needed is a publicly accessible grading system for such trips...where participants can rate their experience for others to read vs having only the trip advertisements to view, heavy with their self serving participant quotes.

The number one responsibility of the guide is the safety of the shooters. Watching them so they don't walk off a cliff, stand in the road shooting when a car is coming, leave equipment behind, whatever. The shooters are people in foreign environments who need looking after. Guides who are shooting are not doing this, they are courting danger and should be exposed.

I think it is a good idea for the tour leader to take some photos when it is a landscape/composition tour and the going is therefore slow. It is very educational to see what the leader makes of the same scene and how his composition differs from yours.

On a wildlife tour where the action can be frantic and positioning is paramount, the tour leader should take a 'backseat' and simply give advice, taking pictures when it does not get in the way of the participants.

Many of these workshops are quite expensive and I would be annoyed if the leader took my money and then denied me the best opportunities.

I agree with E'J.'s comment above. It has happened to me that the leader took the best position, even the best transportation equipment, which was also a factor in getting to the subjects.

I haven't and will not use this workshop leader in the future.

A couple of leaders who do it "right" are Andy Biggs and Charles Glatzer.

Mike

If a client pays for a workshop; absolutely for the workshop leader/s the client images should be of their primary concern and their own photography is secondary. Not against workshop leaders photographing as long is their priority's are correct!

When I went to Costa Rico in 2012, we were standing by our car at the airport when I over heard the tour group next to us. They paid for a car and driver but he has not shown up at the correct time. As we got into both of our vehicles and were driving away that group was standing outside the airport waiting.
I've been to Alaska shooting bears with Joe McDonald and to Yellowstone with Jess Lee. I shared a van with Greg Downing on St Paul Island in 2003. Three of the very best in the business.

This discussion comes up all the time. A person taking a workshop can walk away knowing whether or not they are the priority, and the only priority. There is a big difference between shooting on a workshop to inspire creativity and to share in the entire process, and shooting for your own shooting. Clients can tell the difference. I think that to make a blanket statement that it's wrong to shoot on a workshop is a narrow viewpoint. To shoot or not to shoot on a workshop depends on the dynamics of the workshop and what you're teaching or guiding. But it's not black and white as there are times when it is appropriate and beneficial to the clients, and then there are times when it is not, such as described when there is only one good shooting angle or someone needs a lot of hand holding.

I try to be an engaging instructor and make my attention and time and work ethic to my clients the best that I can. In order for people to come back it demands that I leave an impression - a good one - each and every time. But I shoot on pretty much every workshop alongside my clients when there is adequate space to share the shoot - for creative and teaching purposes. It's just my style and I have yet to have a complaint and have lots of repeats who travel with me over and over. There are times when I cannot (hummingbird set ups for instance or when I am driving boats for loons) but most of the time I have my camera and I can yell out settings, compositions, f stops etc. If I had my face in YOUR camera instead of my own in order to see these things then I might actually stifle your creativity rather than just be there to support it... Sure if you need my attention in your camera or on your LCD at any given moment you can bet I'll drop mine and come running. And sometimes I can tell even without words

I have been a fly fishing guide off and on over the years and the discussion somewhat parallels being a tour guide. If the person has no clue what he is doing, I give my undivided attention to him or her so that they can learn and have a great time. For more experience people who may be uncomfortable with a baby sitter, I will be near him, but stay out of his way (sometime fishing but mostly not). People can get in trouble in an unfamiliar river and they deserve your undivided attention. Mostly it comes down to be able to read your clients and see what is acceptable for them.

Interesting discussion indeed. I've been on a few tours and I agree that the person leading the tour *MUST* have the paying participants' interest in mind, first and foremost. If they shoot, it is okay by me - I do not need constant attention, but it is up to the leader to be aware of the clients while out shooting. This is especially true for the wildlife tours.

I've been on one tour that was a disaster and I will NEVER go with these folks again. I won't go naming names in public since that is not my style and it is not who I am. I will give out the names if you'd like to know via email / PM.

I've had both experiences. The worst was a workshop out west where I wound up helping some of the participants because the 'leaders' were too busy shooting. I got my shots but felt pretty sorry for the participants that were there to gain guidance and learn from instructors but got virtually no help.  I generally will attend workshops to gain access to locations I've never been to before but tend to have no expectations of the instructors other than to be attentive to the participants. The best workshop that I have attended was the Fall Photography at the Summit and it was worth every penny.

dougc wrote:If I am paying money I think the leader should not be photographing, he/she should be observing and teaching in the field. Paying for someone else to shoot on my time is not acceptable.

I think this is too limiting for learning as you eliminate the possibility of seeing what the instructor took in the same situation you were in. In most situations, I find that I learn as much or more from that as from what technical help the instructor can give while you shoot. Especially in Wildlife situations where the moment is key. In landscape work, I'd want the instructor over my shoulder asking questions and giving advise on composition.

I would prefer a classroom setting to learn technique as opposed to watching a teacher do it in the field while I am paying him/her. Just my opinion on the subject.