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by pleverington on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:37 pm
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Growing pains, plain and simple.
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by Greg Downing on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:44 am
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Since day one folks have expressed displeasure about the low number of comments to views on this and virtually every other photography critique forum - the ratio will always be low as that's the nature of this sort of thing. Lots of people looking and a few select actually participating. We have many more lurkers than participators so people ARE watching but it takes more effort to comment. Quite frankly, aside from friendly encouragement, there isn't anything that can be done about it. 

We've tried different things for nearly a decade and it's simple human nature - some just prefer to look but don't take the time to comment. For those posting images, but leaving few comments, that is another issue. We have considered a quota but it's not something that would frankly help the site in my opinion.

The commenting patterns have nothing to do with the new site or growing pains in my view. If anything commenting is up - and traffic is way up.

As far as some mods being less active we realize that is a huge issue and we will be changing our mod guidelines and converting many back to regular contributors and finding mods that are willing to make a time commitment. This is something we have been discussing for some time and wanted to wait until we launched the new site before we started the process as it's tedious - we can't just go willy nilly removing mods so we need to address each one individually (we have done this before). We'll be getting into that very soon. Meanwhile, If anyone is interested in a mod position that requires a time commitment (with terms limits) please contact me directly.

If you want your images commented on and you want to learn then we encourage you to ASK for help and not just post an image with caption. That is the one thing you can do to get more comments on your own images. Try it, it works.

As usual thanks for the feedback and continued support!
Greg Downing
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by Tom Robbins on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:21 am
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NSN has been a friendly community since its beginning. It is a good place with good people. So, when members post photos in the galleries, I prefer to assume that their intention is to share the images they are especially happy with. My m.o. has been to comment on those that really resonate with me, and leave the others alone. The difference between the two is entirely subjective of course—technical aspects notwithstanding. 

As a result of this approach, my comments tend to be infrequent. There are occasions when a critique might be helpful, but the poster's reaction depends in large part on the reviewer's credibility.

One way around this little conundrum might be to include a drop-down list of intentions that could be selected by the poster. The choices might include "sharing", "critique wanted", or "question". This would help viewers to determine if suggestions will be welcome or not, and may also increase the number of comments.

Just a thought.
 

by Eia on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:11 am
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I’ve been trying to post more this New Year because I have learned so much on these forums.   My two reasons are time and intimidation. I see one beautiful photo after another and I feel all I can say is ‘nice photo’ or ‘how did you do that’? I do try to point out why I like it.  I’m not a pro so I feel if I give c&c it would be like me critiquing Martha Stewart’s cupcakes.
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by milosphotos on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:05 pm
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I agree with most of what has been said above. My suggestion is to make 10 comments for each photo a person posts (as suggested by many), however, to make the comments on the first 10 posts in the forum, no matter whose images they are, or how "good" or "popular" the image is. That way, everyone gets feedback, we get away from the "cliques", and the beginners don't get left with 1 or 2 comments. After that, a poster can comment on favorite images or those of friends. At least that is what I try to do when I have posted. That said, I have been fairly innactive for the past year or so, but partly for the reasons mentioned above.
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by Neilyb on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:38 pm
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milosphotos wrote:I agree with most of what has been said above.  My suggestion is to make 10 comments for each photo a person posts (as suggested by many), however, to make the comments on the first 10 posts in the forum, no matter whose images they are, or how "good" or "popular" the image is.  That way, everyone gets feedback, we get away from the "cliques", and the beginners don't get left with 1 or 2 comments.  After that, a poster can comment on favorite images or those of friends.  At least that is what I try to do when I have posted.  That said, I have been fairly innactive for the past year or so, but partly for the reasons mentioned above.
But if you force people to comment like that then you will have 99% "Good shot" or "Wow nice" comments.
 

by Alexandre Vaz on Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:25 pm
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The suggestion of making an effort to comment on other photographers work makes sense, but establishing a ratio (like 10 comments for every image you post)may lead to empty comments without relevant content.
I aways find time when I think I have something constructive to say (which is probably not very often)...
 

by dougc on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:16 pm
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There are a whole lot of really good photographers posting here and as expected, most show only their best stuff. Hard to say much other than, " wow, great, stunning" etc., ad infinitum. When someone posts a less than stellar image it usually receives very few, if any responses. Those who are ignored tend to stop posting. I would suggest adding a critique forum for those in need of honest opinions concerning their work. Seems to me this should result in a lot of comments but then, what do I know?
 

by Leo Keeler on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:52 pm
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As lots of folks above have said it's often hard to leave constructive comments that help the photographer and/or other viewers.

How about rather than just saying Great Image etc. - you add in what is is you like. Maybe that will help a lot more folks. Just a thought.
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by Jon Swanson on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:20 am
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For me, I can tell when a workshop was just completed. Because there is a huge influx of the same shots or type of shots. I just don't see the need to comment on those....or the same baited owl flying at you shot.
 

by pleverington on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:37 am
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I took Bill's original post to mean that he felt commentary seemed lower now compared to before the site change, but maybe I'm reading him wrong, especially weighing Greg's comment that the comments and traffic are up since the site change.

Personally I comment on anything that tugs on my senses for whatever reason. I just can't regale myself to some rule to post x amount of times because as others have also pointed out, this would lead to trivialized commentary.

Many times I leave my honest comments only to have them go un-replied to or even acknowledged. That then leaves one to wonder if it's really welcomed or not. Sometimes however they get responses even in the form of a PM, which is very encouraging and inspires me to keep going. So I would say that if someone does make a comment on your stuff beyond the "Atta Boy" slap on the back, give a response to let that person know one way or another that the commentary was welcomed and appreciated. Otherwise slowly but surely they will stop commenting on your stuff altogether believing you don't want to hear it. Then everyone looses out as Bill made point of when he started this thread.

I do see the site reflecting an evolution as the years go by. Our shooting styles and tastes are constantly in a state of change. Ten years ago I might consider a shot to be of the killer category, but viewed nowadays that same shot can be rather routine. Not hard then to see that the site is also evolving as we do. An example is a greater excitement in the birds forum for included environment images and more of that type posted and pursued when shooting in the field. For many years it seemed the "rule" was to eliminate everything and isolate the bird with a blurry bg. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do see things as growing pains. I'm sure the site will evolve from the new design over time so I would call that growing.

More discussion on the image poster's part about how the shot was made, visualized, composed, and so one would also encourage others to do the same. Many times a photo is put up on the board and there isn't even shooting data included. So rather than put it all on the responders shoulders, perhaps the image poster could say something to get the ball rolling. It's a lot of fun and thought provoking to read what others are really thinking. Typically I skim past all the Atta Boys and look for any comment that has more than one or two lines. But talk about your image a little when you post one, and when people do respond, maybe give them more meat to chew on than a "thanks for the comment". Nothing is more encouraging to others than responding back to the actual content of their critique and comments. Once this is seen as the norm, then you will get a lot more honest good feedback that actually will help everyone improve their work.

We might try having a post "your worst shot day" or your best "butt shot" day to solicit spirited responses. Who wouldn't comment then since the ego would definitely be out of the picture. I would love to see(for grins and giggles) some of everyones bloopers and blotch jobs, especially from those that are awesome with their work nowadays.

Paul
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by Andrew Kandel on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:44 pm
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I also would like to see a "Critique" forum. Something where responses are expected to be substantial and those posting images go in knowing that negatives may be pointed out but hopefully in a constructive way.

In a related matter, I'd like to see a "Photo Essay" forum/gallery where you could post 3-7 images on a theme for critique. I think this would be much more helpful to those of us looking to submit to galleries or magazine stories than the one off nature of the galleries at the moment.
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by Bill Lockhart on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:58 pm
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pleverington wrote: I do see the site reflecting an evolution as the years go by. Our shooting styles and tastes are constantly in a state of change. Ten years ago I might consider a shot to be of the killer category, but viewed nowadays that same shot can be rather routine. Not hard then to see that the site is also evolving as we do. An example is a greater excitement in the birds forum for included environment images and more of that type posted and pursued when shooting in the field. For many years it seemed the "rule" was to eliminate everything and isolate the bird with a blurry bg. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do see things as growing pains. I'm sure the site will evolve from the new design over time so I would call that growing.Paul
I think you have touched on something very well here Paul. Especially the paragraph above. Yes things have changed. What was once a great photograph is now mundane, old, worn out, discarded, and forgotten. I can't believe the images I am seeing today, far superior to anything I remember a short time ago. Part of it is our new equipment, but perhaps more significant is that photographers are improving because they are learning. And this is key to site participation, your points about discussing your image and asking others for suggestions is well taken.

Part of the problem I am having is that, well, I have nothing to add, other than I am in total awe of someone's works.

I know that for too long I have been in a groove, not willing to step outside the box and try new things. It really helps me simply to see what others are doing, and make note of what I like about their work. I bet a great many photographers here don't realize how closely I follow them, even though I may never comment on one of their shots. I am just sitting there in the background with total admiration for their work.

As to acknowledging comments, it seems a long tradition here not to do so. Few photographers acknowledge the comments of others. Some do, most don't. And yes, when someone does respond to a comment I have made, it is more than likely that I will comment again in the future. I do try always to respond to questions, it seems impolite not to do so.

I agree about commenting on stuff that tugs ones senses. It is hard not to.

I want to be encouraging for others, and sometimes I just want to be a tad critical to  help someone improve, but I worry that in doing so I may be perceived as the opposite. That's the tough part, you see someone with talent and a little nudge might help. The art is figuring out how to do it.

Best regards,

Bill
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by ChrisRoss on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:03 pm
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Maybe you could try a popup that appears after you have submitted a post, something along the lines of "thanks for posting, if you like to receive comments on you image please consider commenting on someone elses' post". Then the options could be:

1. OK, take me to a random shot to critique (software directs you to a random shot with 2 or less comments)
2. OK, Take me back to the forum to select shots
3. I'll comment next time I visit.

You could laso implement a thanks button to award thanks for the critique given and that could be displayed as a Karma reading for that person.
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by wtracyparnell on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:23 am
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ChrisRoss wrote: You could laso implement a thanks button to award thanks for the critique given and that could be displayed as a Karma reading for that person.
Actually there is a "like" button on every post already that could serve the same purpose but it isn't used much.
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by ChrisRoss on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:00 pm
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The problem with the like button is it applies to the post not the poster. What I'm thinking of would be an additional line underneath where it lists the number of posts which list how many of your posts were comments or replies.  People with good ratios could be given additional privileges and a gold star perhaps?
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by Marina Scarr on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:53 pm
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I have been following NSN for several years.  While I don't often post pictures, I do try to comment on some of my friends' pictures as well as others that catch my attention.  While I enjoy looking at many of the pictures posted here, I don't often feel as though I actually learn anything new...at least not in the avian forum which is my favorite.  I will say that I can sometimes get ideas on how to photograph a subject but I rarely see moderators or participations actually giving advice or critiquing per se.  For me, this appears more of a forum for people to show off their work.  Greg offered a good idea for those who wish to receive advice to actually ask for it in their thread.  

There definitely seems to be an issue with a number of avian moderators not participating on a regular basis.  An increase in their posting and commenting/critiquing would really help generate participation.  When participants see that moderators are not participating, it probably hurts the morale some.  There is no longer a weekly theme in the avian forum which participants seemed to truly enjoy.  Once NSN can find moderators that have the time to contribute and offer both critiques and comments, I think this will help increase readership and help bring a sense of community to the avian forum.  

I really like  the new format of NSN.  It's also nice to have the editor's picks chosen on a timely basis and have them so visible in the avian forum.   I do agree that there will always be a number of lurkers which is the case on all such forums.   It would be nice to find a means to turn the lurkers in to participants but it seems to be a tall order.
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by Tom Reichner on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:14 pm
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Personally, I was much more likely to open a thread and comment on an image in the "old" site format.  I rather liked it when the photos were shared in more of a forum format, as compared to the current "gallery" format.  Nothing wrong with a gallery, but I am just not likely to spend much time looking at galleries.  Photo sharing sections on a forum, however, are likely to get a lot of my attention, and hence I am more likely to comment when images are presented in that format.

I do want to say that I really appreciate Carol Clarke and Cindy Marple.  They take their role as wildlife forum moderators seriously, and comment on almost every image posted.  On the bird forum, many of the moderators seem to only comment on the images they like, and several images posted there do not receive any comments from moderators.  That is difficult for me to understand - and yes, I do realize that the sheer volume of images posted there is much greater . . .  but so is the number of moderators.  If the bird forum moderators seldom comment on bird images, then how can we expect anyone else to comment consistently?  Carol and Cindy have set a great example in the wildlife section - one which would be great to see others follow!
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by Yiming Hu on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:53 am
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Tom Reichner wrote:Personally, I was much more likely to open a thread and comment on an image in the "old" site format.  I rather liked it when the photos were shared in more of a forum format, as compared to the current "gallery" format.  Nothing wrong with a gallery, but I am just not likely to spend much time looking at galleries.  Photo sharing sections on a forum, however, are likely to get a lot of my attention, and hence I am more likely to comment when images are presented in that format.
I have the exact same feeling.  The forum format reminds me that I need to participate.  I really miss the old format.

IMHO, NPN's format is a good combination of forum and gallery. It shows pictures as well as the number-of-views/comments/lot-of-other-info at the same time.
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by Colin Inman on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:05 pm
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It's true that you don't get the views / comments in the new format, and while I don't get into the birds forum as often as I would like, I try and look at some of the images with less comments - a bit of critique here is more valuable than another well done on a popular image. That's a bit harder to do with the new gallery.
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